Gaining, Maintaining, or Losing Power As You Age?

[70plus]

JP I can see how I confused you sorry - when I said 70 to 80 percent I was talking about maintenance workouts - getting ready for a meet is not the same at all - but you do start at the 7o percent range and it is a 8 week progression ending hopefully with more that your last PR - if not a least not too much of a loss - I am one of those that realizes that my pr's of 5 years ago are just that and work very hard to get the most out of what the body will give me!! I do have one goal bench 225 when I am 80 and hopefully I will not be part of one of your investigations before then:

[lct99]

[/quote]There's no doubt that there's some ego-eccentric folks on this and many other boards like this one. Guys who just cannot admit that maybe their best days are behind them.

I just think that at some point in your life, you're going to hit a brick wall where you simply cannot move more weight. At that point do you say I've reached my peak? Is it possible, just possible to have reached a "peak" at a certain age, whatever that age is? I think it is.

At that point, if you're trying to push past that peak, to me, its just inviting injury and not "smart training".....the kind of training we say as Master's lifters that we know how to do because we're Master's and have experience. That's where the ego thing comes in. Refusing to admit you're simply not as strong as you once were....not that you're not strong at all, just that when you were younger (whatever age you want to insert here) you were a little or a lot stronger.John =)[/quote]


With all due respect jp, it's not so much what you are saying as how you are saying it that is offensive. You are very condescending, as in your use of the term "ego-eccentric."

I am 48 and as strong as I have ever been. I have benched in the 400s in my 20s, 30s, and 40s (including now). I fully expect to not only bench in the 400s in my 50s, but intend to set new records. Am I as strong as I have ever been? Yes, I am, and all of your belittling commentary to the contrary cannot refute what I know to be fact based upon my own experience. Now, does that mean I could not have been stronger in my 30s than I am now had I trained smarter, or trained differently? I don't know, but if you want to say that would be the case I will not quibble with you. All I know is that I am stronger now than I was then.

As far as thinking people are ego-eccentric because they will not admit to "hitting a brick wall," well first of all I haven't hit that wall and do not have any present plans to do so. In any event, I coach a lot of young people in sports, and I have had them go off and play college and professional football, and I have always taught them that in training or practicing or games you will hit a wall that tells you that you are at your limit. It is when you break through that wall that you will finally start to reach your potential as an athlete. I believe it because I have done it. My kids believe it because they do it.

So you go on believing that us aging folks aren't what we used to be, and I will keep adding plates to the bar, and I will keep helping kids excel and reach their dreams. Ego-eccentric? If you say so. Still enjoying new PRs and success? Absolutely!

[ironwarrior275]

Well said lct99.

Continued Success, and welcome to the 40+ Revolution!

As I stated in an earlier post...you're only limited by your own imagination.

Now the work that must be done once you conceive your master plan is a whole other story...
but the order of setting new Pr's and Records of any type, still goes like this: Conceive, Believe & Achieve.

If you can't see it happening (John) and you don't believe it will happen (John) and oh yeah...you don't implement or create
new ideas (John) then I can guarantee that the wall you so fondly speak of will not only appear...it will fall right on top of you!

iXL So Can YOU @ TEAMiXL.com

- Greg

Safety Bar Squat - 100% RAW - 415 x 15

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Giaf6SA8aLQ

There are No Limits Drug Free!

[RichHutchison]

Hi, I just ran across this thread and I want to thank uncleal for his flattering comments about my deadlift. You can shake my hand any time, but don't squeeze too hard - I'm almost 68. :-) If you're benching 250 and deadlifting 415 at age 61 after training for only 6 months or so, then you should crush my records in 4 years, if someone else doesn't beat you to it. You're only 30 pounds off in the bench? Fantastic!

Regarding the topic at hand, well, of course you lose strength as you age. DUH!!! I benched 330 as a 20-something and am now lucky to get 210 to 215. Part of that loss is due to rotator problems, including major surgery just about 3 years ago. But my best gym bench in the past 10 to 15 years was 245, and best competition bench was 235 at age 61 in an ADAU meet in 2002. So I'm down 100# in the bench. :-P (All at 165# bodyweight and raw, of course.)

I can't compare squats or deadlifts with what I might have done as a young man, because I was strictly an upper body lifter, interested only in arms and chest. When people asked me what I did for legs, my standard answer was "I wear pants." I did my FIRST squat and deadlift at age 56. So I don't think it's totally wrong to say that the really strong guys probably wrecked their knees years ago, so it becomes a case of being the last man standing.

But I can say that my squat has held steady over the past 10 years. The 375 in the April 100% Raw Maryland meet was actually my best ever, slightly edging my previous best of 374.8 (170 KG) from the AAU Worlds in 2002.

And my deadlift has improved somewhat. Never deadlifted over 425 until last year, and then hit 440.97 (200KG) twice in 2007, and then the 450 in April. I can't really account for the increase, other than possibly a slight change in technique, wider feet, which make me lower. Also, I'm not kidding when I say that I think the aging has made me shorter, so I don't have quite as far to pull. Shorter is better, as many results have shown, and every little bit helps. If I can keep wearing out my disks at this rate, who knows what I'll be able to pull in the future?

If anyone wants tips on geriatric deadlifting training, including techniques for wearing out disks and getting shorter, feel free to ask.

[uncleal]

ROFL. Very good, Rich. While I don't need any help getting shorter (down an inch and a half since my twenties), I would love to know a little about your deadlifting technique and workouts.

Funny you should mention a wider stance. I had the privilege of training with Brian Schwab a few weeks ago, and he told me to give sumos a shot. Since doing so, not only have my conventional pulls gone up, but I'm squatting better, too.

Based upon what you said about the benching, I guess I shouldn't bitch so much about losing ground. I, too, concentrated on developing a showy upper body for most of my life and rarely did full squats or DLs. So, it stands to reason I'd make some progress there.

Thanks for posting, buddy. You're one of my heroes, and God willing, I'll stay strong enough to follow in your footsteps.

[jp]

Jun 18, 2008 7:05:08 GMT -5 lct99 said:

There's no doubt that there's some ego-eccentric folks on this and many other boards like this one. Guys who just cannot admit that maybe their best days are behind them.

I just think that at some point in your life, you're going to hit a brick wall where you simply cannot move more weight. At that point do you say I've reached my peak? Is it possible, just possible to have reached a "peak" at a certain age, whatever that age is? I think it is.

At that point, if you're trying to push past that peak, to me, its just inviting injury and not "smart training".....the kind of training we say as Master's lifters that we know how to do because we're Master's and have experience. That's where the ego thing comes in. Refusing to admit you're simply not as strong as you once were....not that you're not strong at all, just that when you were younger (whatever age you want to insert here) you were a little or a lot stronger.John =)[/quote]


With all due respect jp, it's not so much what you are saying as how you are saying it that is offensive. You are very condescending, as in your use of the term "ego-eccentric."

I am 48 and as strong as I have ever been. I have benched in the 400s in my 20s, 30s, and 40s (including now). I fully expect to not only bench in the 400s in my 50s, but intend to set new records. Am I as strong as I have ever been? Yes, I am, and all of your belittling commentary to the contrary cannot refute what I know to be fact based upon my own experience. Now, does that mean I could not have been stronger in my 30s than I am now had I trained smarter, or trained differently? I don't know, but if you want to say that would be the case I will not quibble with you. All I know is that I am stronger now than I was then.

As far as thinking people are ego-eccentric because they will not admit to "hitting a brick wall," well first of all I haven't hit that wall and do not have any present plans to do so. In any event, I coach a lot of young people in sports, and I have had them go off and play college and professional football, and I have always taught them that in training or practicing or games you will hit a wall that tells you that you are at your limit. It is when you break through that wall that you will finally start to reach your potential as an athlete. I believe it because I have done it. My kids believe it because they do it.

So you go on believing that us aging folks aren't what we used to be, and I will keep adding plates to the bar, and I will keep helping kids excel and reach their dreams. Ego-eccentric? If you say so. Still enjoying new PRs and success? Absolutely!

[/quote]

Hi,

Sorry you take my comments as condescending. They're not meant to be. Just an opinion that's all.....and I see that you mentioned "football" so I'm guessing that training and gaining has never been a problem for you. I wish you continued success in your training.

JP

[angrytomato]

WELL I WAS GOING TO START OFF WITH HOW STRONGER I AM AND ALL THAT BUT GREGG AND THE OTHERS HAVE DONE A FINE JOB WITH THAT AND I SIDE WITH THEM. I WILL MENTION THAT I HAVE VENTURED OUT INTO THE STRONGMAN REALM AND FAIRED PRETTY WELL IN MY FIRST TOURNAMENT AND MET WILLIE WESSELS AND TOM MITCHELL - 2 SUPER NICE GUYS. BUT WHAT IMPRESSES ME MORE THAN ANYTHING IS JP'S ATTITUDE AND HIS SUPER THICK SKIN. GOOD FOR YOU JP, I HOPE TO MEET BOTH YOU AND DOPAR SOMEDAY CAUSE I HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR YOU TWO GUYS, IN DIFFERENT WAYS. I THINK DOPAR IS HILARIOUS AND I BELIEVE JP HAS A GREAT AMOUNT OF SELF CONTROL AND A SUPER THICK SKIN, BOTH HIGHLY REDEEMABLE QUALITIES. SO KUDOS TO ALL WHO POSTED , IT SURE HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING TOPICS OF LATE (THANK YOU AL, YOU SURE KNOW HOW TO STIR THINGS UP!)
LATER
KISSEL
LIFT HEAVY OR GO HOME
AND YES I STILL ENJOY OUTLIFTING THE YOUNG PUPS AT THE GYM.

[RichHutchison]

Yeah, unfortunately, a loss of an inch and a half in height sounds about right.
I used to say that I was a hair under 5'7", but that was when I had hair.
I don't think I'm even 5'5" now. :-P

I tried sumos ONCE a few years ago and thought my groin was going to explode. Figured I was doing well enough with a more traditional style that I wasn't willing to step back and learn a new technique at that stage. I’m pretty much an instinctive lifter, and I make no claim to being technically proficient or knowledgeable, but sumos do make sense to me for two reasons. 1. They definitely get you lower, so there’s the height (range of motion) factor again. 2. I’m not sure, but it seems to me that they also get your knees a little more out of the way, so you can keep a straighter back. I wouldn’t know if or why sumos would help your squat, unless you squat with a similarly wide stance. Then maybe your feet are about the same width in both squatting and deadlifting, so you’re making those two exercises more complementary.

I’m probably about as close to sumo as you can get with the traditional style, with my hand grip barely outside my shins, and maybe even partially in front of them. Sounds weird, but I want my feet as wide apart as I can get them without the groin pull, and my arms as straight down (hands close to the ground) as possible. Again, I think it’s all about getting lower and not pulling any farther than necessary.

As far as training, I’m almost embarrassed to tell you my deadlift routine. Besides, I have never been able to wade through anyone else’s list of sets, reps, and pounds, so I hate to bore you. But you asked, so I’ll try to make it brief. I read somewhere a long time ago that a prominent lifter (I forget who) said that the best way to train for deadlifts is to NOT deadlift. I don’t go that far, but I don’t spend a lot of time on it.

I deadlift only once every other week. I do stiff-legged deadlifts on alternate weeks. I have never attempted a deadlift over 405 in the gym. I deadlift the day after I squat, so there’s a fatigue factor present. Don’t ask why, no logic, it just turned out that way. :-P To put that in perspective, I think I have to add that I squat twice a week, one day a little lighter with sets of 8 and the other day a little heavier with sets of 4. Anyway, I deadlift the day after my lighter squats (max 300). I deadlift 135 x 8, 225 x 6, 315 x 10, 365 x 6, and then 405 x 1. That’s it. The 315 and 365 are my real work sets (just about to failure), and the 405 is my confidence builder that on a bad day I can open with at least 400 and maybe 425; beyond that, I play it by ear in the meets.

Now to really bore you, I’ll add that I train deadlifts with a stiff 1 1/8 inch bar; that makes the bar 1/16 of an inch lower than most competition bars, so it’s slightly more difficult to pull. Also, as luck would have it, the 45 pound plates in my gym are slightly undersized (Chinese junk). They’re 17 3/4 inches in diameter, as opposed to (what I believe is) the norm of 18 inches; that lowers the bar another 1/8 of an inch. So my training bar is thicker, harder to hold, more inflexible, and a total of 3/16 of an inch lower than a competition bar. Then I train in Converse All-Stars and compete in slippers, so I think I’m standing at least 1/4 of an inch higher in training. If this hasn’t lost your interest yet, I’ll just say that I train under adverse conditions, what with fatigue and an extra 1/2 inch or so to pull. And even though I’m not used to them, I love the more flexible bars that are sometimes used in meets. If they’re more flexible, then it makes sense that the bar bends ever so slightly upward (gets higher) before the full weight of the plates hits.

I work harder on stiff-legged than regular. I do sets of 12 with 135, 185, 225, 255, and 275. My intention is to make the lower back and upper hamstrings strong enough to help handle lapses in form for both the deadlift and squat. Again, this stuff just evolved for no particularly good reason. I’m sure lots of knowledgeable people could pick it apart. But it seems to have been working for me.

There’s no way you should be disappointed in your bench. Just take a look at raw and (presumably) drug free bench records in the ADAU, AAU, and 100% Raw. You must be right in there if not on top already.

BTW, who are you? “uncleal” doesn’t give me much of a clue. Were you in Hagerstown? How else would you know about my lifting? Email me if you prefer.

Rich Hutchison
7623 Nutwood Court
Derwood MD 20855
[e-mail]
301-785-5846

[uncleal]

Well, Rich, first of all, we're twins. I'm exactly your height, bald, and also compete at just above or below 160 lbs. I also don't train deadlifts every week, but I alternate them with rack pulls.

I love your routine. You've built in so much complexity. No wonder you've done so well.

My name is Al Annunziato. I live and compete in Florida. My meets with 100% RAW have been the Worlds (December '07) and the Masters Nationals (March '08). My next competition will be the RAW United meet at the end of this month. I have also competed with the APA.

I know of your lifting because I read all of the 100% RAW meet results, and of course, I draw encouragement from the performances of other older lifters. I danced around the room when I read of your most recent efforts, and I'll bet I wasn't alone.

[fidler]

Jun 19, 2008 17:12:36 GMT -5 uncleal said:

I know of your lifting because I read all of the 100% RAW meet results, and of course, I draw encouragement from the performances of other older lifters. I danced around the room when I read of your most recent efforts, and I'll bet I wasn't alone.

Rich, I had the privelege of lifting in your flight down at Hagerstown. It was my first meet, and although the quality of lifting was high across the board, your performance was exceptional. I only started lifting a couple of years ago, and although I know I'll never approach your numbers, your lifting showed me and everyone else in attendance that age alone does not mean that we have to 'act' old. I'm glad to have you on the forum, and look forward to learning from you.
Bill Landers

[uncleal]

Jun 19, 2008 11:32:18 GMT -5 angrytomato said:

...KUDOS TO ALL WHO POSTED , IT SURE HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING TOPICS OF LATE (THANK YOU AL, YOU SURE KNOW HOW TO STIR THINGS UP!)

And here you thought I was just this incredibly handsome, intelligent, buff, strong old guy. Modest, too.

See you next weekend, big boy. Eat your wheaties.

[rickhussey]

While I agree that someone can make gains as they grow older (I intend to), why have powerliftings federations created submaster and master divisions then?

Doesn't that insinuate that something happens to strength levels as you get older? I am assuming these divisions are created to enable a lifter to remain competitive among his/her peers in said age group.

Maybe I am wrong about the reasoning behind the various divisions...not sure.

[RichHutchison]

Rick - Of course you're correct.

I have plotted many of the records in different organizations and found a fairly straight line (linear correlation) between age and results. Take any given bodyweight, and there will be some blips here and there, but in general, the older the age, the lower the weight lifted.

The same (in reverse) holds for bodyweight in any given age group; the bigger you are, the more you lift. The exception to that seems to be the supers. There's generally a drop off, especially with the older guys, up around the 275# mark. Someone once told me that it was probably because it's not healthy, especially older guys, to carry 300# of bodyweight, and that makes sense.

[emc08pville]

I started lifting for strongman events in 2002 when I was 37 and made very good gains for 6 months until I got hurt and could not lift for about a year. I started lifting again and keep hitting prs every contest. Last week I pressed a 260# log overhead at the ohio championships strongman meet and that was only something I would dream about when I was 20 something. I think I can get stronger every year if I stay focused and injury free.

[scottmitchell74]

Great thread!! I'm glad I started the Powerlifting lifestyle in my early 30's. I had been thinking lately that time is against me, but very recently have had other thoughts. Maybe the pure, raw ability isn't there like when I was 20+ but my mind, desire, wisdom and willingness to learn is so far beyond who I was then that I KNOW I'll be better at 40 than I was at 20. (Rrecognizing that I may pay for it more via pain once the bar hits the ground! In softball I'm as fast as ever and hit the ball as far/farther, but boy do I pay for it days after.

[uncleal]

It's even more fun after you turn 60, Scott. After a meet, my every joint and orifice is inflammed for two weeks. Yes, I truly do become a flaming a__...Oops...(What are the language restrictions for this forum?)

[angrytomato]

IF YOU WOULD JUST STOP SHOWING OFF FOR FEMALE GERMAN AND CANADIAN ROWING TEAMS YOU WOULD BE FINE, AL!
GOOD LUCK TOMORROW!

[uncleal]

Gee thanks, Brian. Now everyone's gonna think I'm an old letch.

Thanks for bringing your deadlift bar to the meet, buddy. It made a BIG difference.

[jp]

Jun 19, 2008 11:32:18 GMT -5 angrytomato said:

WELL I WAS GOING TO START OFF WITH HOW STRONGER I AM AND ALL THAT BUT GREGG AND THE OTHERS HAVE DONE A FINE JOB WITH THAT AND I SIDE WITH THEM. I WILL MENTION THAT I HAVE VENTURED OUT INTO THE STRONGMAN REALM AND FAIRED PRETTY WELL IN MY FIRST TOURNAMENT AND MET WILLIE WESSELS AND TOM MITCHELL - 2 SUPER NICE GUYS. BUT WHAT IMPRESSES ME MORE THAN ANYTHING IS JP'S ATTITUDE AND HIS SUPER THICK SKIN. GOOD FOR YOU JP, I HOPE TO MEET BOTH YOU AND DOPAR SOMEDAY CAUSE I HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR YOU TWO GUYS, IN DIFFERENT WAYS. I THINK DOPAR IS HILARIOUS AND I BELIEVE JP HAS A GREAT AMOUNT OF SELF CONTROL AND A SUPER THICK SKIN, BOTH HIGHLY REDEEMABLE QUALITIES. SO KUDOS TO ALL WHO POSTED , IT SURE HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING TOPICS OF LATE (THANK YOU AL, YOU SURE KNOW HOW TO STIR THINGS UP!)
LATER
KISSEL
LIFT HEAVY OR GO HOME
AND YES I STILL ENJOY OUTLIFTING THE YOUNG PUPS AT THE GYM.

Thank you.....=)

Cheers,

John.....

[Deleted]

Hi Everyone;

I am a new member, let me tell you bet of myself.
I started working out at 17 years old and stopped around 20 years old and at that time was a good bencher and dead lifter but not so good in the Squat.
Body weight was 168, a bench of 330 a dead lift of 450 pounds.

Then from 20 to 31 years old laid off the weights, at 31 went to a gym with a buddy of mind in 1990 did a 300 pound bench on my first workout and dropped 315 pounds on my chest that day, how lucky I was and stupid.

Then for the next 14 years laid off the weights for it really scared me, then in 2004 started benching again, but by this time 4 years later I weight 205 pounds .
I competed in shirt contest in 2005 at 197 pounds and did raw 325 pound bench in the 90 kg glass at age 49 , now that I am coming to 50 years old in a few months at the weight of 205, my best raw bench now is 400 pounds in the gym.

I am thankfully and would like to compete in a raw Canadian or world level in the good USA which the word record sits at 402 in the 100 kg class, 50 too 55 age group, or maybe lose some weight and stay in the 90 kg class ,but keep much of my strength.
Want do you good people think.

Compo

[northernyogi]

Jun 27, 2008 14:09:19 GMT -5 angrytomato said:

IF YOU WOULD JUST STOP SHOWING OFF FOR FEMALE GERMAN AND CANADIAN ROWING TEAMS YOU WOULD BE FINE, AL!
GOOD LUCK TOMORROW!

Dude please turn your caps lock off! Looks like your shouting at everyone. TIA

[uncleal]

compo - Welcome aboard. Hope you meet those goals.

yogi - I don't think Brian (angry tomato) posts here anymore.

[Deleted]

Hi Uncleal;

Thanks for your kindness, Please tell me about you and your goal;s in life.

I myself am from Canada ,living in Alberta, and my trade is a Mason, Married to a lovely wife for 23 years and have one pretty Daughter,sorry all ready taken bud.

Compo

[jp]

Jun 11, 2008 15:09:24 GMT -5 uncleal said:

I don't usually train that hard, Brian. When you saw me, I was trying to impress those HOT women on the Canadian rowing team who were working out near us. The decline has been steady for four decades -- from 280 in my twenties, to 265 in my forties, to 250 now. I was just wondering what others have experienced.

Hope we can get together tomorrow, big guy.

I started to experience the same thing when I turned 40. Now at 47, my squat is pretty close to what it was 20 years ago, but my deadlift has fallen to about 70% of what it was. I should add though, that I have not really trained it hard in the last few years either so. As for my bench, my has dropped off as well. But, I found that doing the bench once a week and the military press once a week, on separate days about 3-4 days apart from each other has helped me push my bench back up. My bench is down roughly 40 pounds from what it was a few years ago.

I've corresponded with Ricky Dale Crain in the past and the single best piece of advice he gave me, which I still follow to this day, is that as master's lifters we need to keep our weights up around the 80% range, otherwise we fall backward too fast.

When I cycle my lifts, instead of 8-12 week cycles like I used to use, I now use short 4-6 week cycles instead. When I reach a peak after 4 weeks, I drop back to about 80% and only use triples and doubles....no singles.

I'm doing this right now for my squat. I'm using roughly 12 sets in my squat workouts, but the first few, starting with the empty bar, up to about the 80% range, are easier sets using only 3-5 reps. When I get into 90% territory, I just try to get 2-3 reps with that weight and then work back down to 135 or so. The last few sets I use pause reps on, but each set is never more than 3-5 reps.

So for instance, here's what I did last night:

barx10
135x5
185x5
215x5
235x5
255x5
275x3 - heavy set for the day
255x5
235x5
215x5
195x5
145x3 pauses from the pins

That's it!

Some leg curls and leg extensions to keep the knees and hamstrings strong and that was it.

next squat workout, every set gets bumped up 5 pounds except the first few. They stay the same.

Old Guys Rule!!!

John

[uncleal]

Thanks, John. That's pretty much in concert with a routine that old icon, Bob Gaynor, suggested for me. He likes the 3x3 wave, where you move up for four weeks, then drop back to week 2 and start another four week progression; for example:

Week 1: 275x3x3
Week 2: 285x3x3
Week 3: 295x3x3
Week 4: 305x3x3

Week 5: 285x3x3
Week 6: 295x3x3
Week 7: 305x3x3
Week 8: 315x3x3, etc.

It's working great for the squat, but in all honesty, it overtrains my deadlift. My CNS can't do consecutive weeks off the floor, once I move into the 90% 1RM range. Alternating with rack pulls works much better.