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Post by jeremy on Sept 15, 2006 7:24:48 GMT -5
I have always been an equipped lifter. Not because I like wearing a bench shirt, but because of the relief it offered my shoulders. I am going to be coming over to the raw side and want to know how others with chronic rotator problems adjust their training.
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Post by dopar66 on Sept 15, 2006 8:39:12 GMT -5
Hey, Jeremy. Welcome to the forum! Glad you have found us.
All I can tell you is what my occaisonal training buddy does. He had surgery on the rotator cuff about 16 months ago. Since then, he pre-habs before benching, squatting, deadlifting, anything that's not a leg isolation. If it's going to use the shoulder at all, he pre-habs.
Use a 5 lb dumbell. Start with 10 front raises, then 10 side raises, then 10 roundhouses. All reps are slow, no explosion or speed whatsoever. Over time, increase reps, NOT POUNDAGE. Allen does 20 reps each movement each shoulder, still using 5 lbs. I'm up to 15 reps, not trying to wear myself out before I exercise. :')
That's about all I have to offer you. Hopefully some of the other guys can comment. 3Speed really knows his stuff, and there are several others that are really knowledgable about this kind of thing. Hopefully they'll jump in.
God Bless. Doug
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Post by jeremy on Sept 15, 2006 9:22:38 GMT -5
Thanks, I also have had surgery, and follow a similar pre-hab routine which usually helps. My problem is I have become weak off the chest and tend to loose tightness and form breaks down when weights get heavy and get stuck at weak point (about 3-4 inches off chest). How much different is raw bench tech. than shirted ( I bring bar down to upper abs, elbows tucked)? Usually very slow eccentric when weights get heavy, which causes me to get loose.
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Post by dopar66 on Sept 15, 2006 10:35:49 GMT -5
I can't answer that, Jeremy. I've never used a shirt. This is what I'd do. I'd go to the "logs" part of the forum and find the log for some of the shirt guys that post here (there are a few) and ask one of those guys. One log is even named something like "Raw and Shirted Bencher".
Hope it's helpful.
God Bless. Doug
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Post by jeremy on Sept 15, 2006 12:46:58 GMT -5
thanks doug
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Post by 3speed on Sept 15, 2006 17:32:35 GMT -5
Jeremy, welcome aboard.
I blew out both of my shoulders at the same time in 1989 because I was very strong and had no idea what I was doing. I did some serious damage including 2 broken ribs. I was told I would never be able to lift again. That incident forced me to learn about kinesiology and how the body responds to lifting. I had to because I wasn't going to accept that answer. Briefly, this is what I learned.
The shoulder is a weak, vulnerable joint. It was not designed to support weight. I was designed to lift and rotate the arm which it is very good at. When you bench, you create instability in the shoulder unless you work to strengthen the entire shoulder at the same time. Bench press strengthens the anterior (front) delts. Strenghtening only the anterior delts pulls the entire shoulder forward and out of it's natural position. This will create all kinds of problems in and around the joint itself creating pain both in the shoulder joint and the surrounding area. You could even experience pain in your forearms.
You correct this problem by correcting the imbalance. You have to work the posterior ( rear) delts, the rhomboids, and miscellaneous other stabilizers in the back of the shoulder area. I know you probably don't want to hear it but you may even need to lay off of the bench for a while to strengthen your shoulder girdle.
Good excercises to accomplish this are reverse flies, one arm dumbell rows, chest supported rows, and barbell rows. It is very important to use correct form with these excercises - pull with your elbows, not your hands. You need to concentrate on working the muscle, not on lifting the weight. If you have access to a pec dec, you can use it backwards - another good exercise. The prehabs that DOPAR mentioned need to be done with light weight. The reverse pec dec should be done with light weight and high reps. The other exercises should be performed with as much weight as you can maintain good form with.
I hope this helps. I have been there. Please feel free to post any followup questions. I will try to help.
P.S....On the raw bench, the pecs get the weight moving. The stress then transfers to the delts and finally to the triceps for lockout. If you are sticking at 3-4", it sounds, to me, like you are having trouble transitioning from your pecs to your delts. Dumbbell bench and work with chains will help tremendously with that. But, please work on strengthening you shoulder girdle first. You are only as strong as your weakest link.
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Post by jeremy on Sept 19, 2006 6:44:39 GMT -5
Thanks, I could not agree more. It is great to see those educating themselves so that you are not forced to simply take the advise of a doctor, I just finished my masters in exercise physiology. Although much of what I have learned in my 4 years of powerlifting does not correlate with my course work. I do think that my shoulder girdle is weak, but still have not pin pointed why I loose tightness on the way down. When weights get heavy the bottom 3-4 inches, is when I get loose. When this happens I usually dump the bar or get stuck on my chest, so the pressing muscles don't even get a chance to move the bar up. This some times happens with weights as light as 85-90 %. I find that when I do purely concentric work (off pins in rack) that even off chest (a weak point of mine) I am able to move heavier weight better than when there is the transisition between eccentric to concentric, as the is in all competitive lifting.
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jp
Full Member
Posts: 183
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Post by jp on Oct 12, 2006 19:29:39 GMT -5
Thanks, I could not agree more. It is great to see those educating themselves so that you are not forced to simply take the advise of a doctor, I just finished my masters in exercise physiology. Although much of what I have learned in my 4 years of powerlifting does not correlate with my course work. I do think that my shoulder girdle is weak, but still have not pin pointed why I loose tightness on the way down. When weights get heavy the bottom 3-4 inches, is when I get loose. When this happens I usually dump the bar or get stuck on my chest, so the pressing muscles don't even get a chance to move the bar up. This some times happens with weights as light as 85-90 %. I find that when I do purely concentric work (off pins in rack) that even off chest (a weak point of mine) I am able to move heavier weight better than when there is the transisition between eccentric to concentric, as the is in all competitive lifting. Hi Jeremy, I had similiar issues with my shoulders. I rectified the problem by dropping the bench for a period of time. I worked on Power Rings which I purchased a few years back on the internet. I attached the rings by the straps to the chinup bar on my power rack and did set after set of pushups on them, until I was doing 10 sets of 10-15 consistently. At that time I started benching again. The problem with that though was my bench dropped off big time, but my shoulder healed and I was able to rebuild my bench. I make sure I include shoulder work on a different day than my bench. So for instance, right now I'm working on a simple routine of bench pressing to a heavy triple and then backing off for a few sets on my heavy day with either floor presses or bench pressing with towels on my chest - similiar to board presses, but in my opinion safer if you train alone like I do. My "lighter day" consists of a high incline press - about 80 degrees and using my bench press grip. I also use the close grip bench press to the chest. I started benching on my heavy day with a closer grip probably 22 inches between the index fingers. The close grip day is about 16 inches between the index fingers. A wider grip helped me off the chest a bit but I stalled about 5-6 inches up. Once I got past that though, lock out was easy. So when I brought my grip in a bit, I was able to launch the weight right off my chest, using my triceps, but the lockout was a bit tougher. For me, the lockout is a bit easier to rectify with floor work and towel benching. I also completely change my bench style. I now have a deep arch, pinch my shoulder blades together, keep my elbows tucked, tuck my chin, and pause at the bottom. I make sure I include plenty of lat work too. I was doing rows but recently switched to regular old fashioned pull ups with my bench press grip....weighted if possible. I would just keep the routine as simple as possible. Some people - me included - make better progress with a simpler routine. Just a thought....your mileage may vary... Cheers, JP
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