Reverse Pyramid Training ?

[treders]

I usually use what I call regular pyramid training ie I add weight each set finishing with one or two top sets, for Bench which has always been my worst lift I've more recently been using the Buckeye program for 3 weeks then I de-load and do 3 weeks of rep work which consists of week one work up to a top set or two of 3 reps, week 2 a top set or two of 5 reps, week  a top set or two of 2 reps, de-load then repeat the Buckeye.

However having been reading about reverse pyramid training and Paul Bossi's experiences it has got me thinking that I would like to use this method in place of my 3  weeks rep work, the plan would be after a warm up one top set of 3-5 reps, drop the weight by around 10% try for 5-7 reps, drop a final 10% and try for 7-9 reps. I would take a 3 minute rest between sets and if I get the top number of reps for a given set I would add weight to that set the following week.

Just as before after 3 weeks I would de-load and then do the Buckeye program for  weeks rinse and repeat which brings me to my question. has anyone tried reverse pyramid training and if so what were your thoughts ?

Secondly does my plan seem plausible or do you think I should just stick with what I've been doing ?

Any advice much appreciated.

[George]

Its generally accpeted that there are three ways to program, via toggling intensity (weight), volume (how many reps) and frequency (how many sessions). I've come to learn as a raw lifter that volume and intensity work best for me, as a partnership of build muscle, then refine it. No matter what, you can only get as much horsepower as your engine size allows, soon you need a bigger engine. So if we keep programming simple, and look at two important parts...that is building muscle versus refining it, we have volume versus cns intensity.

The buckeye routine is somewhat of a hybrid...it gives enough pre-load that there is some volume handled before the top sets, but its not enough for volumes sake and the real secret is taking you to a prefatigued 90% attempt. IN other words, the Buckeye is no doubt a good bread and butter way to spend three weeks tuning your CNS with higher intensity. (And your cycling of it seems on target by keeping to that three weeks, although I would say if you continue to climb, the deload might not be necessary until it stalls. Yes, 90% for three weeks is good advice, but if you haven't stalled, I've seen it work for 4-6 weeks depending on training level, etc.

When you say you leave the Buckeye and "deload" with top sets of 3-5 reps, you are still within that 87-90% range. Usually a top set of three is around 90% for most lifters. The 5 rep max, however, is probably closer to 85%, and is more in the powerbuild range of mixing power and volume...but still not exactly volume.

The reverse pyrimad is the exact opposite of the buckeye, you go from a heavy intensity into real volume reps. To me, if the Buckeye is stalling or you want to take a break from 90% training, then this would be a great way to shake things up for a few weeks. I would keep the beginning top end set goal for a set of 5 though, because like I said, a top set of three is going to keep you around 90% anyways. To truly switch the formula, I think a few weeks of heavy 5's followed by that reverse pyrimad would be good.

Just keep in mind that this is a every three weeks thing, and volume is best for building muscle. I think its safe to say that you cannot expect to amass much mass with three weeks. The reps should restore all the heavy lifting by flushing fresh blood, there may be a slight gain. To me though, I think six weeks of volume training starts to pack a noticeable punch, followed by ramping the intensity for another 3-4 weeks. It totally depends on how you feel and what you need. I would ride either until you felt ready to switch. If your banging out volume sets, feel tighter, notice size change, then obviously your CNS and intensity training should take you to a higher mark. If you spend three weeks with volume, return and find not much has happened, then it maye be time to dedicate to volume for a while.

[treders]

Hey George thanks for the detailed response it means a lot especially after I spent quite a long time reading through your whole training log a while back.

When I mentioned weeks of rep work in my original post I should have made it more clear, what I was in fact supposed to be doing was working on ant rep range that I felt was weak during the Buckeye phase, if everything seemed ok or even then I would just do a week of 3's then 5's followed by 2's so that's what I ended up doing.
I'm not sure if this makes a difference to the information that you have given me ?

If I'm correct in understanding the information you have given me though, what I should be doing is switching over from the Buckeye to the RPT style of training once the Buckeye goes a bit stale to top shake things up a little as they are both relatively high intensity.

For volume what do you think about 5x5 using straight sets would that be viable for perhaps a 6 week period before using either the Buckeye or RPT would that be enough volume to get me started ?

Thanks again for your input

[George]

Here's an awesome article that might give alot of food for thought. It's a basic glaze over of things we've talked about, dividing popular rep schemes by strength, strength and size, and size (5x5 included).

www.t-nation.com/training/22-proven-rep-schemes

I have used 5x5 at times, I think I've used everything at times lol. I still feel that in the end, this mix of heavy and volume weekly is giving me the best of both worlds with one heavy day at or below 90% to keep the CNS primed, and a volume day to help build while flushing the muscles with recover oxygen while superificially tearing them a different way. So instead of intensity waves, then volume, I keep them both weekly. That to me has catapulted me more than anything. Just focussing on the competition lifts, heavy singles once a week with more of a bulgarian "by feel" approach (meaning try not to fail, leave some for next week, etc) and then two days later flush it with reps, repeat. Seems to speed my recovery and keep me going by not over doing the intensity while also not pushing extremly hard on the volume (aka less is more). I cant say mixing high intensity and volume in one week is good for all, maybe the cycles are better. I do know that I worked up to a 5 rep max with 600, then did a single with 675 before beginning a Coan style progression. 500 for 2x10, etc. What I found was bitter sweet, 600 seemed real heavy....I felt like I needed the intensity to stay somewhat high, that 6 weeks of volume certainly gained a better look and tightness, but then I had to catchup the CNS.

[osu122975]

Just a quick note on what Geo said about the three methods of programming - there's a "general" acceptance of one or two of those methods "up" while the others take a back seat. You don't want all three full boar.

[treders]

Thanks again both for the input, the 22 proven rep schemes is a great article which has now got my head spinning :-) I really like the idea of using something similar to yourself George although I would probably use a double rather than a single as I think I have been grinding a little to much just lately.
When doing the volume work a couple of days later how close to failure do you go on those sets do you go ie how many reps do you leave in the tank ?

The way I've been training my bench so far is using the approach I mentioned in my original posts with the Buckeye etc on a Saturday followed by close grip benching on Wednesdays working up to a top set consisting of 3-4 sets of 8 plus 2-3 sets with a reactive slingshot as my elbows can't handle triceps extensions.

I may have to just wing it for the next week as I'm still not sure how I should proceed at the moment but I certainly have some food for thought and i'll probably ease off my squatting as I prefer deadlifting as the squats have been bugging my shoulders just lately so won't be going full bore on all three lifts.

[George]

Not to beat woody to it, but no matter what, if something's working, keep at it.

As for the two out of three rule, that is something I forgot to mention but is true. I thought I found a magic bullet getting crazy with volume and frequency, with workouts like smolov, korte, sheiko, etc. I made gains, but felt zapped. Hard to recover, keep interest, etc. icing on the cake came from hearing Ed coans opinions on the eastern block volume in which he argued he always made gains doing far less. I switched to less is more, and everything went up fast. I threw out most accessory work, focussed on comp lifts, a heavy day and a rep day. I don't even want to call it a volume day per say, I just go by feel, add weights, do reps. The weights keep climbing on volume day, but nothing is to failure. To me it's as bare as I can make it, very simple, and I'm recovering and feeling good. The me from six years ago would be saying I need more volume, and seven years ago I'd argue I needed dynamic work, etc. the trend has undoubtedly been using less and less and seeing more. But that's me. At some point, you might hybrid mash all of those things and be doing you're on thing completely. And I wouldn't get too hung up on analyzing, as long as there's work being done that resembles those guidelines, you should advance. there's a fine line to frequent change being good or bad, but you'll find your niche

[osu122975]

Yea, George is right. Less is more especially if you've been at it a while. When the gains come to a halt or start coming slower, it might be time to back off if everything else is in line like your sleep, rest, nutrition, etc. Newbies can get away with a lot. When you've been doing this for a while, you gotta get smarter with training and the discipline isn't so much about getting into the gym, its staying away and trusting in rest and recovery rather than pulverizing yourself.

[treders]

Thanks again both for your responses it's most appreciated, as someone who's fast approaching the big 50 im a practitioner of the minimalistic approach myself as I work full time and don't have much free time.

George it's funny you should mention Smolov as I was considering The Smolov Jr Bench program not so long ago to shake things up a bit but at my age im not sure my elbows or shoulders could handle it. One approach that I saw via a youtube review was to do the routine every other day rather than the Mon, Wed, Fri, Sat approach apparently it takes a little longer than 3 weeks but allows a little more recovery.

[George]

I fell out of super volume. It worked at first, but any powerful dose of anything that's shocks the body might, but the only time I was ever injured was a pec tear during sheiko. And I've done solo I think twice, maybe half two times and full once. I always gained 20-30 or more on my max, but using the minimalist style I went from 630 to 700 in a meet. I was 20lbs heavier, but also likely had 730-750 in me that day. So for now, I'm sold on minimal. But, if everything stalls I'm sure I'll be back to volume, but still just minimal. I might work to heavy fives, 5x5, etc one day then do sets of 8-10 etc the other. But the three or more days volume sessions I think I'm done with. Then again, I have a push personality, I tend to take the volume to extremes. What seemed to happen was amazing training prowess with submarine weights, but no real bump in my max. For I stance I'm at 700 plus now one rep in the squat, but couldn't handle half of a 600 solo routine. And I'm ok with that lol

[George]

Smolov, not solo. Spellcheck

[treders]

Thanks again for the great advice George, in the end I went with the minimalistic approach as you advised. I decided on the 9 week Russian Squat Routine For Bench program which gradually increases in volume before tapering into a strength phase so keeps in with the adding some volume for more than just 3 weeks as you advised whilst keeping my gym time down to just twice a week.

I have run this program about 18 months ago before I got severe tennis elbow and I did make some progress on it so all being well I should be able to get things moving again. I'll probably run this then maybe do some more rep work and Buckeye again and see how things go.

This site has some really helpful members I'm really pleased that I got lucky and stumbled across it, thanks everyone for the advice on this thread and via personal messages it's much appreciated :-)

[George]

No problem, good luck.

[3speed]

I know I'm late to the discussion here, but I would like to make one observation. Be careful about doing what works for others without knowing why it worked - their history.

George, the great Russian coach Yuri Verkoshansky said that building strength is like putting up a building - you can't build higher than the foundation will support. Your minimalist approach worked because you had already spent considerable effort building your strong foundation. One more quick note here and then I will shut up. That foundation is not all muscle size. It is technique learned and ingrained through repetition and it is neural efficiency.