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Post by osu122975 on Sept 11, 2015 21:17:07 GMT -5
Anyone on here compete w/o any supportive gear? I've been reading about these "purists" who wear no supportive gear when they compete.
I guess when you think about it, it seems suits and shirts are defined as supportive gear but I think its more like assisted as well as supportive. No doubt belts and wraps give support to lift more weight or we wouldn't use them. They might not assist, but they sure aid in the lift.
What's everyone think about the non use of belts and wraps to compete? Is it possible that the competition would be more fair or a truer test of strength?
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Post by Cormac on Sept 12, 2015 5:57:11 GMT -5
I can understand people not wanting to use knee wraps, but abstaining from using a belt seems archaic to me. Belts, neoprene knee sleeves and wrist wraps really don't add many pounds to a lift for me anyway and they help keep me healthy. Especially the wrist wraps, I get terrible pain in my wrists when I don't use wrist wraps.
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Post by 3speed on Sept 12, 2015 8:05:27 GMT -5
I guess you could call me one of those "purists". The only equipment I use is a belt and I only use it on squats and only began doing so this year. I began using a belt not as a direct support for my squat, but as an a way to force more muscle activation which, theoretically, will benefit my squat over the long haul. A study that was done on the use of belts showed an increase in EMG readings of the thigh muscles during the squat. However, to the surprise of the researchers, this increase did not show up during the deadlift. There are a few possible reasons I can think of for the increase during squat, but I won't bore you with that right now. If you would like to read a review of the study... www.strengtheory.com/should-you-wear-a-belt-or-not-study-write-up/ |
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Post by osu122975 on Sept 12, 2015 11:52:22 GMT -5
I can understand people not wanting to use knee wraps, but abstaining from using a belt seems archaic to me. Belts, neoprene knee sleeves and wrist wraps really don't add many pounds to a lift for me anyway and they help keep me healthy. Especially the wrist wraps, I get terrible pain in my wrists when I don't use wrist wraps. So the wrist wraps help support your wrists.....You won't move the same amount of weight w/o them. They allow you to move more weight safely. |
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Post by osu122975 on Sept 12, 2015 12:00:36 GMT -5
I guess you could call me one of those "purists". The only equipment I use is a belt and I only use it on squats and only began doing so this year. I began using a belt not as a direct support for my squat, but as an a way to force more muscle activation which, theoretically, will benefit my squat over the long haul. A study that was done on the use of belts showed an increase in EMG readings of the thigh muscles during the squat. However, to the surprise of the researchers, this increase did not show up during the deadlift. There are a few possible reasons I can think of for the increase during squat, but I won't bore you with that right now. If you would like to read a review of the study... www.strengtheory.com/should-you-wear-a-belt-or-not-study-write-up/A belt helps me significantly on the squat, not really much at all on the pulls. So I agree with you on that for sure. What is your best squat w/ no belt? How about total and bodyweight w/o a belt? Personally, I think the real testament of strength in powerlifting is done w/o supportive equipment. I think its easy to hide behind wraps, belts and gear. It doesn't make them weak at all, but no doubt real strength is gauged w/o all the gear. I also think the stuff can "mask" injuries and make them worse in the long run by continuing to punish a body part until the gear no longer helps and you need surgery or rehab, etc. I once read Dennis Cieri said if anything started giving him fits, he stopped or worked around it. He let it heal rather than wrap it and keep pushing forward risking injury. Also, I believe many guys back in the day always lifted raw and no belt while training offseason and even in comp prep up to the point they started adding the gear (wraps, then suit down then straps up until the meet). There was a progression. Their mainstay was raw strength was their base. Adding the gear made the lifts more safe once they went past their raw capabilities, but they always needed the raw strength to go up. Make the muscle work harder w/o the gear. |
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Post by Cormac on Sept 12, 2015 14:33:23 GMT -5
A belt helps me significantly on the squat, not really much at all on the pulls. So I agree with you on that for sure. What is your best squat w/ no belt? How about total and bodyweight w/o a belt? Personally, I think the real testament of strength in powerlifting is done w/o supportive equipment. I think its easy to hide behind wraps, belts and gear. It doesn't make them weak at all, but no doubt real strength is gauged w/o all the gear. I also think the stuff can "mask" injuries and make them worse in the long run by continuing to punish a body part until the gear no longer helps and you need surgery or rehab, etc. I once read Dennis Cieri said if anything started giving him fits, he stopped or worked around it. He let it heal rather than wrap it and keep pushing forward risking injury. Also, I believe many guys back in the day always lifted raw and no belt while training offseason and even in comp prep up to the point they started adding the gear (wraps, then suit down then straps up until the meet). There was a progression. Their mainstay was raw strength was their base. Adding the gear made the lifts more safe once they went past their raw capabilities, but they always needed the raw strength to go up. Make the muscle work harder w/o the gear. When you say a belt helps you significantly on the squat how many pounds is it adding to your squat? over 10-20lb. |
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Post by osu122975 on Sept 12, 2015 15:20:56 GMT -5
A belt helps me significantly on the squat, not really much at all on the pulls. So I agree with you on that for sure. What is your best squat w/ no belt? How about total and bodyweight w/o a belt? Personally, I think the real testament of strength in powerlifting is done w/o supportive equipment. I think its easy to hide behind wraps, belts and gear. It doesn't make them weak at all, but no doubt real strength is gauged w/o all the gear. I also think the stuff can "mask" injuries and make them worse in the long run by continuing to punish a body part until the gear no longer helps and you need surgery or rehab, etc. I once read Dennis Cieri said if anything started giving him fits, he stopped or worked around it. He let it heal rather than wrap it and keep pushing forward risking injury. Also, I believe many guys back in the day always lifted raw and no belt while training offseason and even in comp prep up to the point they started adding the gear (wraps, then suit down then straps up until the meet). There was a progression. Their mainstay was raw strength was their base. Adding the gear made the lifts more safe once they went past their raw capabilities, but they always needed the raw strength to go up. Make the muscle work harder w/o the gear. When you say a belt helps you significantly on the squat how many pounds is it adding to your squat? over 10-20lb. I know this, when a weight feels heavy at the bottom w/o the belt and I lift the same weight the following set w/ the belt, the difference is night and day. I don't know the amount because I've never attempted it that way. The belt give a LOT of support in the hole. Definitely more than 10-20lbs. I tend to expand at the bottom as I get to the hole. The closer I get to the hole, the tighter my stomach gets on the belt, which stabilizes my midsection and makes me tighter and in turn, makes me stronger. A tighter muscle is a stronger muscle. Anytime you wrap the knees, wrists or belly, it stabilizes that joint and makes it stronger. Same when you see guys wrap their elbows for the bench. Take a month and lift w/o any supportive equipment. You'll find you won't be able to handle the same weights consistently. You'll strain more. The workouts will be tougher. It's less like for a joint to move or shift if its been wrapped. |
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Post by 3speed on Sept 12, 2015 15:26:50 GMT -5
First - a correction. I was in a hurry earlier and stated that I began using a belt earlier this year. It was actually in April 2014.
EDIT: osu, I agree totally with your post and the following is basically me saying what you just typed.
Now, I want to make it very clear that I am not anti-belt or anti-any gear for that matter. I just believe in getting as strong as I possibly can without any accessories. Supportive gear does have legitimate uses, but for me one of the biggest drawbacks is that it tends to make up for or hide form and technique issues. Bear in mind that I'm not talking about bench shirts or squat suits here. They require a technique all their own. I'm referring to belts and wraps.
I'm not trying to pick on you cormac, but if you get terrible pain in your wrists benching w/o wraps and you don't have arthritis, then I would suspect that you are holding the bar too high in your hand forcing a strong backwards bend of your wrist instead of holding it low in your hand and maintaining your wrist in alignment with your forearm.
osu, I see no difference in my absolute squat strength when comparing belted to beltless. I currently squat low 6's either way at a bodyweight of 220. In fact, some days I will realize that I didn't belt up after I finish a heavy set. The one difference I do notice is I can usually get 1 or 2 more high intensity reps when belted vs beltless and I know that leads to greater progress as long as I stay patient. The kicker is that even though it is my belted squat leading the progress, it pulls my beltless right along with it. Maybe, it's because I went beltless for so many years.
As for my total, it is up since adding in a belt but that has been a process and I attribute it to better programming of my training.
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Post by osu122975 on Sept 12, 2015 15:32:19 GMT -5
First - a correction. I was in a hurry earlier and stated that I began using a belt earlier this year. It was actually in April 2014. EDIT: osu, I agree totally with your post and the following is basically me saying what you just typed. Now, I want to make it very clear that I am not anti-belt or anti-any gear for that matter. I just believe in getting as strong as I possibly can without any accessories. Supportive gear does have legitimate uses, but for me one of the biggest drawbacks is that it tends to make up for or hide form and technique issues. Bear in mind that I'm not talking about bench shirts or squat suits here. They require a technique all their own. I'm referring to belts and wraps. I'm not trying to pick on you cormac, but if you get terrible pain in your wrists benching w/o wraps and you don't have arthritis, then I would suspect that you are holding the bar too high in your hand forcing a strong backwards bend of your wrist instead of holding it low in your hand and maintaining your wrist in alignment with your forearm. osu, I see no difference in my absolute squat strength when comparing belted to beltless. I currently squat low 6's either way at a bodyweight of 220. In fact, some days I will realize that I didn't belt up after I finish a heavy set. The one difference I do notice is I can usually get 1 or 2 more high intensity reps when belted vs beltless and I know that leads to greater progress as long as I stay patient. The kicker is that even though it is my belted squat leading the progress, it pulls my beltless right along with it. Maybe, it's because I went beltless for so many years. As for my total, it is up since adding in a belt but that has been a process and I attribute it to better programming of my training. That's amazing to me you see no difference. I must have weak abs..lol. I actually prefer lifting w/ no equipment. Just simpler. I'm like you....not against any gear. I can't imagine getting into all that stuff just to lift a weight. I know how long it takes me if I squat using knee wraps (which is basically never now), a belt and wrist wraps. Throw in the suit and I would probably feel like the mix of meat they throw into those skin dogs.  |
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Post by dbunch on Sept 13, 2015 8:11:54 GMT -5
Gear adds something, if it didn’t we wouldn’t use it. Now how much of it is mechanical and how much of it is mental I can’t say. I know a while back I tried squatting without a belt for a while and I got within 5% or so of my max at the time. Mentally I never felt comfortable though so I gave up on the idea. Wrist wraps, I have always used them. In the past I think it was more because everyone else was. Not I use them because I have Carpal Tunnel (Office work, never learned to type correctly) so it really does help with that.
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Post by 3speed on Sept 13, 2015 10:53:53 GMT -5
Gear adds something, if it didn’t we wouldn’t use it. Dan, we have to be careful about making blanket statements. I can assure you that there is no difference between my single rep maxes belted and beltless. I am adding it into my training more and more but the only time I always wear a belt to squat is on the platform. (Even there, I have been reminded on occasion that I needed to put it on.) I am almost always in new territory then and wear it for the "just in case" factor. (Maybe that makes your 'mental' point) I watched a 181 lifter squat just over 500 a couple of years ago without a belt. I asked him about it and he told me that he felt like a belt actually interfered with his squat. You are correct where it concerns the great majority but there will always be outliers. |
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Post by dbunch on Sept 14, 2015 14:28:42 GMT -5
LoL I can see how my comment can be miss interrupted. I personally will never lift as much without a belt as I do with. Not because of any great mechanical advantage it offers but because my mind will always doubt my ability to do so without it. I use a belt because I do get something out of it, granted it is a completely mental advantage but it is an advantage none the less. Now, can someone who has trained without a belt add more to their lift by using a belt? I doubt it would in any significant way and as you said it will even restrict some lifters.
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Post by 3speed on Sept 17, 2015 19:36:51 GMT -5
Confession time:
I just used wrist wraps for squat and bench. My wrists are beat to crap from doing all 3 lifts 3 times a week. I ain't as young as I used to be.
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Post by Ryan on Sept 18, 2015 8:42:00 GMT -5
Confession time: I just used wrist wraps for squat and bench. My wrists are beat to crap from doing all 3 lifts 3 times a week. I ain't as young as I used to be. I actually stopped using wrist raps on bench because I felt they hindered my natural grip. Meet in 2 weeks so stay tuned for how that works out for me. lol |
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Post by treders on Sept 21, 2015 12:16:47 GMT -5
I think as you get older prevention is better than cure so whilst I wouldn't use a bench shirt or squat suit etc I think wrist raps/knee raps/ belts etc are all fair game.
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