Box squats for raw lifters

[Ryan]

Moved from the log of Rosario-546

Not to derail this thread because it's somebody's training log, but here are a couple of "anti-box-squat-for-raw-lifters" articles I just happened to find while looking for my next meet prep squat program, which both seem to support what I've heard elsewhere over the last two years:

In this article, the author says front and center to essentially avoid them -->
www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2012/09/04/not-all-squats-are-created-equal-3-thoughts-on-being-a-better-raw-squatter/

In this article, the author doesn't make himself totally clear on the topic until you finish the article and then take notice of his response to a reader's comment (it's the very first response), but it's clear he doesn't espouse the box squat for raw lifting -->
articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/more-tips-for-the-raw-lifter/

Again, I'm not saying I hate the lift or I don't hate it, but I am saying that when I read edited articles from people who factually know this sport better than I probably ever will, I'm gonna listen pretty closely to them and less closely to my buddies or some dufus at the gym. lol

[osu122975]

Ryan: Not to derail this thread because it's somebody's training log, but here are a couple of "anti-box-squat-for-raw-lifters" articles I just happened to find while looking for my next meet prep squat program, which both seem to support what I've heard elsewhere over the last two years:

In this article, the author says front and center to essentially avoid them -->
www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2012/09/04/not-all-squats-are-created-equal-3-thoughts-on-being-a-better-raw-squatter/

In this article, the author doesn't make himself totally clear on the topic until you finish the article and then take notice of his response to a reader's comment (it's the very first response), but it's clear he doesn't espouse the box squat for raw lifting -->
articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/more-tips-for-the-raw-lifter/

Again, I'm not saying I hate the lift or I don't hate it, but I am saying that when I read edited articles from people who factually know this sport better than I probably ever will, I'm gonna listen pretty closely to them and less closely to my buddies or some dufus at the gym. lol

I'm interested in continuing this discussion and didn't wanna do it on Rosario's log.

I promise this is not trying to start anything, but have you ever tried them for any length of time? There are articles out there as well that would also say there is benefit to doing them as long as you don't leave out free squatting.

I have used them and they are beneficial. Unless an individual is willing to commit some time to them to see what benefit there is, what purpose does it serve to just say, "They don't work."? Many lifters don't know how to do them correctly either.

I'm aware there are those who are much stronger than me that believe they don't work as much as there are those who are stronger than me that say they can help. The trick is - is a lifter willing to commit some time to them to find out or just keep doing what they always do? I'd say, if training becomes stagnant or the lift doesn't improve over time, it's time to experiment.

Look at all the different methods employed by the top names. All of them do what works for them.

[3speed]

I have experimented with just about every kind of squat and squat assistance known to man.  I always give a new exercise or technique at least 3 months to see if it is working unless it is obviously causing problems.  I log everything almost to the point of obsessive compulsive behavior and only make one change at a time so I can look back over what I have done - not guess at it - and analyze it.

When I worked box squats, my box squats got stronger. Period.  They did nothing for my free squat.  I don't think you can ever go wrong by making something stronger, but I had zero carryover.  I could have been using that energy on something that worked.

I had the same experience with chains.  My squat has always been explosive and training with chains did nothing for me.  (It does wonders for my bench though.)  However, reverse band work does help me - mainly mentally, I believe - by helping me get comfortable with more weight on my shoulders. 

The movements that have helped my squat the most are front squats and squats with the trap bar - yes trap bar.  Everybody wants to call it a trap bar "deadlift" but it is, technically, a squat.  Front squats built my quads like nothing else.  They also get a lot of trunk and mid/upper back stabilizers involved which helps my deadlift - a nice bonus.  Working with a trap bar allows me to work primarily the concentric part of the squat - I get the push part without getting beat up with all of the breaking work of the eccentric portion.

[George]

Without needing to look for opinion, just use a common sense approach to what you think the box squat does. Sitting back and pausing, the lack of tension is either good or bad - some camps will say it helps build better hip start strength from the hole, some will say removing the reflex might not be good for overall synergy carry over. People will say it is better adapted to gear, because it trains the "sit back" element which corresponds with gear.

I would say someone is better apt to forget the arguments for or against box squats, and focus on the reason they feel they need to implement them. For example, if someone says they are looking for more power out of the hole and someone recommends box squats, is it not a valid argument to say the reflex from dropping helps rebound upward? If so, doesn't a pause at the bottom remove the rebound....etc. So much overthinking seems to make either approach sound good.

My personal opinion is that box squats are good for poor form, teaching to "sit" back and helping keep a regular depth. Removing the reflex may make them more difficult, but I do not see the direct carryover to just anyone and stick to my mantra that practicing how you will compete is best. If you will rip downward and shoot up in a meet and are still progressing, I think they are detrimental to add in. If you are someone ho wants to ensure depth, has a slow descent and then grinds or pops up, they may help as they mimic your natural meet style and make it somewhat more difficult. Exactly why I think the gear world benefits so much from them, as they focus on that slow sit back, knee spread and pop.

[Ryan]

3Speed and George: What you guys are saying here sums up what I've read and heard from most others with significant raw lifting experience as well as some accomplished geared lifters which is that if the box squat serves any purpose, its hard to identify how it carries over to one of the Big3 lifts For raw lifters, other than possibly somehow aiding your DL if you happen to pull sumo (and although plausible, that might even be a stretch).

With all that said, box squats serve a very clear purpose in geared lifting as the gear used along with mechanics of the box squat seems nearer to or even mimics a gearded squat, at least of the multi ply variety.

Again to each their own, but the lift itself always seemed pointless to me from a mechanical carry over standpoint for the raw lifter, so whether right or wrong, I'm glad to know that I'm not crazy for thinking that way. Lol

[toddyork]

Hi, All - new to the forum but enjoy the thread. I box squatted weekly for several years and they really improved my geared comp squat. I wore Chucks and used a Titan Dual Quad. The Titan was a 'brake-type' suit as opposed to a more stretchy 'rebound-type' suit. Box squats were great for the type of gear I competed in.

Now I train raw and wear Adipros. I follow a 531 template and love it. I still box squat after my main dead lift workout but my technique is different -- my stance is a little narrower and I don't sit back as much (it's more like my raw squat). But here's the benefit I get from it: It hits my hips and lets me work on my form (arching hard) BUT while helping me recover from the heavier squat workout done earlier in the week. Bottom line, it's just an assistance and restorative exercise nowadays (but a great way to build a geared squat).

Thanks for reading,

Todd

[Ryan]

Welcome to the forum Todd.