Which program should i use

[gabriel]

I've been lifting for 6 months doing Jason Blahas 5x5, the last two months have been trash in terms of frequency, 2 days a week instead of 3. I have a 305 DL,225 Squat, and 220 bench. I've stalled my DL and Bench because I had trouble in my groin area from squatting above 200LB. I didnt want my bench or DL to outclass my squat by tons of weight. it seems to be all cleared up now since it was a form issue. I dropped the volume to 3x5 to be able to train in bouldering as well since i love climbing. After doing JB's 5x5 program for another 6 months possibly.I would like to start on a powerlifting program to improve my power and strength. I was told to either use Westside Barbell, or 5/3/1 as my beginner template. Im 171LB FYI

[3speed]

What you are working on right now is linear progression. That will take you a long way if you are smart about how you run it. You just need to get on a better version.

First, stop screwing around with JB's 5X5. It has too much extraneous crap in it that you don't need. Run Stronglifts 5X5 instead - a superior program, especially if you are leaning towards developing power.

HOW IT WORKS:
You only need to train 3 days a week, and you only perform 5 sets and 5 reps on each exercise - usually Monday/ Wednesday/ Friday. This schedule can be altered, however it is essential that you schedule at least a days rest between each session.

WORKOUT OPTIONS:
You will need to alternate between workout A and workout B. So for example, workout A would be performed on Monday and workout B on Wednesday, and then back to A on Friday.

Workout A                   Workout B

Squat 5x5                    Squat 5x5

Bench Press 5x5            Overhead Press 5x5

Barbell Rows 5x5            Deadlift 1x5

Pushups 3 x Failure         Pullups 3 x Failure

Workout A and Workout B are performed with same weight
Add 5lbs total weight each Workout A until you can't get 5 reps on all 5 sets anymore
If you happen to stall on an exercise and cannot perform 5 reps then take off 10% of the weight
Continue adding 5lbs total weight each workout until you stall again



Another good program would be The Texas Method. It can take you from the beginner/novice level all the way to advanced.  You can read about the novice version here:  www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_texas_method
There are more advanced versions you can move on to as you become more experienced.  The intermediate/advanced and advanced levels shouldn't be used until you have 3 years of consistent training under your belt.  Those levels should work for at least 2 more years.

If your gains peak out there, you could run a modified Bulgarian program.  But, that would be years in the future.

5/3/1 seems to work very well for most people as it applies to squat and deadlift, but not so well for bench.  A lot of people have actually lost strength on their bench press running it. (Wendler addresses this very well in Beyond 5/3/1)  It will work for you (a novice) but not nearly as well as one of the 2 routines above.  With 5/3/1, you only increase the weight every 3-4 weeks.  With the routines above, you move up the weight every week or even twice a week.  If you want to run 5/3/1, wait until your gains with one of the other programs stop. 

A lot of people claim they get bored running the same routine month after month.  If you find something that works, stick with it.  Building true strength is a slow process.

[dbunch]

3speed has been at this a long time and you can take what he says to the bank. I can confirm what he said about the bench with 5/3/1. I actually did something that I will later tell you not to do and I modified the bench portion of the program. I still like it for beginners because at its core it’s a very simple program but there are still all kinds of variations to choose from. That being said I recommend the Big But Boring (BBB) routine to start off with which is a warm up, do the prescribed 5/3/1 followed by 5x10@ 50% to 65% and that it. I’ve never done Westside so I can’t comment on it from experience but I know a lot of people who made a lot of good gains using it.

Most of the major programs out there are going to work, the trick is you got to follow the program. I hear a lot of people say I tried program XYZ and it didn’t work for me and most of the time after talking to them a while you find out that they tried to modify the program. If you’re going to do 531 do 531, if you’re going to do westside do westside. Don’t try to come up with some hybrid conglomeration of several different programs or making your own adjustment. Just follow the program as written.

Lastly whatever program you choose to do give it at least 4 to 6 month before you decide if it is working or not. Powerlift is about the long hall. Also document your training, keep a log – that way you can go back and actually see you progress. You’re not guessing. Look for slow solid gains.

If you decide to do 531 I have a spreadsheet to does all the calculations for you send me a pm with your email and I’ll send it to you

[gabriel]

thank you both 3speed and dbunch i really appreciate your time and consideration. i did run SL 5x5 back in march of 2013 all the way to june 2013. My reason for stopping the program was that same groin pain i felt on my right side that i mentioned earlier. Being still a ignorant super noob i took the summer off and just trained in NYC parks doing calisthenics training. I restarted my lifting back on september 13 according to my log book, so I havent reached half a year of training. I did make minor adjustments to JB's 5x5 instead of doing skullcrushers i used dips instead, and instead of doing the isolation bicep work on DL days i do chins up.

Sk.C just didn't feel good on my elbows, and on the bicep curls i just rather do chins ups to avoid any real isolation work that isnt necessary. I would like to finish up at least a 6 month period of lifting before i head back to stronglifts or any of the recommend programs you just mentioned i do as a novice. what are your thoughts on 3x5 vs 5x5 for strength. I mentioned earlier that i enjoy rock climbing and would like to continue doing that on my off days as long as my CNS isn't overly taxed by the previous workout in combination with the climbing for my next workout. and lastly what numbers should i be hitting at the end of my novice year. is a 225LB bench, 315 squat, and 450 DL reasonable numbers? or should i be aiming higher.

Extra information:
Height: 5'8
Age: 20
Weight:88KG

[osu122975]

531 is a good program. Just get replace the press day w/ a bench day. Use the press for assistance.

Just put in the work. Don't get wrapped up in the numbers. Focus on progressing every month. The bigger numbers will come w/ perseverance and consistency.

Good luck to you.

[3speed]

Skull crushers have ruined many elbows.  Therre are many exercises that are preferable - J M Presses, pushdowns, close grip bench, dips, etc.

JB's 5X5 simply has too much isolation work.  You don't need it.  If you are interested in power, you need to stick to squat, bench, deadlift, overhead and rows.  Throw in some (very) high rep curl work if your elbows start bothering you.

3X5 vs 5X5
As a novice, you need to do the 5X5.  You need the reps to perfect your technique and your execution of the lift.  The pain you refer to is probably - as you realized - the result of improper form.  You only learn this and perfect technique through reps.  Transitioning from straight set 5X5 to ramped 5X5 to straight set 3X5 to ramped 3X5 and beyond is - as well as moving back and forth as needed - the progression of your lifting, but you don't move on until your gains have stopped at each level.  Actually you do, but that comes much later in your progression.

There is no guideline for what you should be hitting after 1 year.  Everybody is different.  Everybody is built differently and will respond differently to each of the lifts.  We all have our strengths and weaknesses.  Some people make tremendous gains in a short period.  Some people take years to make modest gains.  Example: I deadlifted 275 the first time I tried and it took me almost 5 years to get to 500.  A guy I trained several years ago progressed from a beginning 315 deadlift to a 600 deadlift in about 6 months at roughly the same bodyweight I had been- made we want to slap him.

Don't worry about you numbers, don't limit yourself and don't compare yourself to other lifters.  Compare what you are doing today to what you did last week or last month or 6 months ago.  As long as you are making progress, you are succeeding.

CNS
As long as you are not performing too many heavy deadlifts or high reps sets on anything else, you have nothing to worry about.  The human body will adapt to whatever demands you put on it.  I personally squat 6 days a week, bench 3 days a week, deadlift twice and play with stones one day a week and I will be 49 next week.  I did go through a period when I first started this schedule where I felt really beat up and tired but it passed and I have been making great progress since.

[gabriel]

thank you 3speed i hope you don't mind if i pick your MIND further. okay so this is what im thinking so far as in switching up the programming etc. i'll finish up 6 months of JBs 5x5 on 3x5 just because i have some vain goals being 20, going up in weight after 2 completed sessions. Than after hitting the 6 month period i'll do a deload week then head into SL 5x5. i'll do SL 5x5 for the remainder of my first year of training. with a deload week at the end of every 12 week cycle or when needed. also is there any literature that you recommend i read, currently i am reading becoming a supple leopard by kelly stewart.

[3speed]

I don't mind.  I was fortunate to learn from some of the greats.  They not only taught me a lot about lifting, they taught me to respect other lifters and to provide assistance where I can.

I don't really think you can put a timetable on the linear progression routines.  You run them until the gains stop, reset, run them again and evaluate your progress.  You might find that you need to move on sooner (or later).

Becoming The Supple Leopard is an excellent choice.  I have read and reread it several times.  Relax into Stretch by Pavel Tsatsouline is another good one.  Practical Programming for Strength Training by Rippetoe and Kilgore.  Strength-Life-Legacy by Paul Carter.  The Texas Method Part 1 by Justin Lascek.  The Texas Method Advanced by Lascek.  Block Periodization by Vladimir Issurin and Michael Yessis.  Beyond 5/3/1 by Jim Wendler.  Those are a few I can think of right now.  They pretty much run the gamut from beginner to advanced.

[bighawgfsu]

Jan 29, 2014 12:10:58 GMT -5 gabriel said:

I've been lifting for 6 months doing Jason Blahas 5x5, the last two months have been trash in terms of frequency, 2 days a week instead of 3. I have a 305 DL,225 Squat, and 220 bench. I've stalled my DL and Bench because I had trouble in my groin area from squatting above 200LB. I didnt want my bench or DL to outclass my squat by tons of weight. it seems to be all cleared up now since it was a form issue. I dropped the volume to 3x5 to be able to train in bouldering as well since i love climbing. After doing JB's 5x5 program for another 6 months possibly.I would like to start on a powerlifting program to improve my power and strength. I was told to either use Westside Barbell, or 5/3/1 as my beginner template. Im 171LB FYI

Gabriel,

I have been training for more than 25 years....started off mainly bodybuilding back in the day....
All the advice 3 speed and others gave is very good information...
I noticed you said and displayed a problem with your squat....from my experience....I would throw some bodyweight squats in your workout at the very end of your leg day....
I had a serious injury to my left knee in 1993 while playing football...i probably tore something pretty good...enormous swelling and all....i am not a big believer in doctors...my wife wants to kill me for that...anyway....i did not go to the doctor just started rehabilitation on my own...I started gradually building up my squats little by little...the main thing i found that helped my squats go up tremondously and built the muscles on the side of my knees up were BODYWEIGHT SQUATS....at the end of my workout....
Try this...after your leg workout....try and do 5 sets of 50 bodyweight squats with 1 minute rest between sets....deep and all the way down as far as you can go....if you cant get 50 slow controlled reps in a set...do as many as you can...25 for example...take a couple of deep breaths and try to complete the set....

i am telling you from experience...it worked for me....i obtained this by trial and error long before these trendy workouts of the recent past few years.

I AM NO MEANS AN EXPERT....however just want to offer what has worked for me to others.....I am just too mean also my wife says.....

Bighawg

[3speed]

Bighawg, I have done the same thing many times myself, but I woukd never advise someone else to avoid the doctor. If pain is intense or chronic, see a doctor. I don't visit the doctor myself very often, but I can't help but believe I wouldn't have some of the problems I have now if I had.

[bighawgfsu]

Jan 30, 2014 8:25:07 GMT -5 3speed said:

Bighawg, I have done the same thing many times myself, but I woukd never advise someone else to avoid the doctor. If pain is intense or chronic, see a doctor. I don't visit the doctor myself very often, but I can't help but believe I wouldn't have some of the problems I have now if I had.

3 speed, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT about seeing a doctor. Gabriel, I was in NO way...endorsing not seeing a doctor...I was just stating my hard headed a** just doesn't go to the doctor...not saying anyone else shouldnt go to the doctor...not smart not going to the doctor...just me.

[gabriel]

The pain i had Was isolated to my hip flexors. After playing around under the bar i came to the conclusion that my stance was too wide for me, i was,leaning too far forward, not setting up my squat tight enough

[George]

Gabriel: I think 3speed said the most important thing about not setting a timetable. You mentioned taking a deload week six months out. Scheduled deloads may be good, but what if its too late or too soon? Too soon and you throw off a rhythm, too late and you might be burning out and starting to slide into injury or stagnation.

Even if using prescribed percentages, the element of going by "feel" needs to remain an important part of the puzzle. Scaling back and toggling numbers may make a deload uneccessary, etc.

I think since 2007 I might have used about every type of workout known trying to find the right fit. Frome Westside, Sheiko, Smolov, Starr 5 x 5, 5/3/1 Linear, Buckeye Routine, Kortes 3 x 3....and some I probably forgot. What I have found is I continuously tweaked and experimented until I sorta landed on what I like the most and perhaps not what necessarily works the best. For me, that has been a higher volume emphasis on squat and bench, bench the highest, relatively no assistance but perhaps one more move. Compared to 7 years ago I am doing far less than ever yet progressing the same.

The only rules I have found that are essential is to use the big three, use at least medium volume (to build, flush and help recover) with heavier work (cns primer) and obviously build more than check the cns. Looking back at greats like Coan, I am a believer in linear progression, less is more and maintaining an intense focus. Once I started keeping it this simple, workouts were much faster, more fun and less dreaded, and my progression has been great.

[gabriel]

Thank you all, I've been able to jot down a good amount of information from all you. I have some other questions concerning form on specific movements like squat and bench for example. Should I make a seperate post? Or just keep it in this one.

[dbunch]

Personally I would suggest starting another thread. Also, if you going to ask specific question about your form I would suggest that you post a video of yourself doing the lift. A pictures worth a 1000 words, and a video is worth a 1000 pictures.

[gabriel]

okay im going to open a different thread and post vids on my dead,squat,and bench. also i took 3speed's advice and dropped JB 5x5 and got back on SL 5x5 what i did keep was the kneeling cable crunch ab work and doing dips instead of pushups and chin ups. i found today though when i did workout B that i was pretty drained when i got to the deadlift. It was first time i ever missed a 1x5 attempt. originally my deadlift was place directly after my squat but now that im doing sl 5x5 its at the end of my compound work. would it be wiser to move the deadlift back to the 2nd slot in my workout instead of having the press.

[gabriel]

Read into another training method today, after being told about by a powerlifter at my gym. The program is the Cube Method which im sure most of you have at least heard of it. After looking over the program it looked very similar to WSB, but i'm a novice and don't know any better so i come to you guys for knowledge on the subject.

[osu122975]

It's a rotation based on WSB method. Instead of dedicated 2 ME days and 2 DE days upper and lower. You train one lift ME, another lift DE and another RE then a bodybuilding day - 4 day/week program.

EX: week 1: ME bench, DE squat, RE pull, BB
week 2: RE bench, ME squat, DE pull, BB
week 3: DE bench, RE squat, ME pull, BB

then repeat

ME-max effort
DE-dynamic effort
RE-repeated effort
BB-bodybuilding

Don't get caught up in all the different programs. They ALL work. 5/3/1 for me is the most fun because of the variety, PR's, rep ranges and intensities - particularly the Beyond 531 book has literally years and years of training in it. Just don't have program ADD - stick w/ one that you believe will work and keeps you interested in training. I would advise unless you've had 2+ years of training that you not attempt WSB or Cube because of the different methods used in which proper execution of the lifts is vital when doing max effort work. Get a good base of strength and technique thru reps before attempting something like WSBB.

[gabriel]

Yeah osu, I've been doing this research now so that in the future I have an idea of what I'd like to do. Im gonna stick to SL 5x5 till the gains stop.