Body weight and powerlifting

[Deleted]

My opinion on body weight for the 3 main lifts.

It's true that if your a heavy set guy, you can deadlift and squat big when starting out.
It's because your legs and core is constantly carrying that body weight all day. This is also why you lose some squat and dl strength when you suddenly drop a load of bodyweight. Some people think they lose muscle when they lose weight but its just their leg carrying a lighter weight. So it's not getting that constant heavy workout.

This could be a reason why some people have a high squat and DL but a low bench.
Bench is entirely back and arms, your arms don't carry your body weight

You can also use the above theory to justify your training.
If your training is right then losing bodyfat or extra baggages will not affect your strength gains.

[crazy]

Maybe we should put on a few to get our squat and deadlift to go up? or maybe heavy set guys arent legitimately strong? Hmmm.

[Deleted]

When I said heavy set, I meant over weight or people with high body fat percentage.

[osu122975]

Dec 31, 2012 1:08:42 GMT -5 crazy said:

Maybe we should put on a few to get our squat and deadlift to go up? or maybe heavy set guys arent legitimately strong? Hmmm.

You may have something there - considering when we look at the difference in bodyweight vs weight being lifted - the smaller lifters who hold records tend to be stonger pound for pound.

But -

Better leverages move big weight - not just big bodyweight.

But I would say the lighter lifters pound for pound are much stronger than the bigger guys - mostly due to more muscle per pound of body weight.

[dbunch]

Funny, there was a report on the new this morning that suggests that carrying a little extra weight is actually “may” be healthier than not.

[osu122975]

tomorrow there will be one that says carrying that extra weight may kill you. lol...i love "studies". they're never wrong! they're never right....

[Deleted]

Example -
If I weigh 170 today. Can only squat 300x1 today
Next week I weigh 180. Squated 305x1 that day
Thats a 15lb increase in squat

Is that a strength gain?
And if I lose that 10lb and go back to 170 bw. Would I be able to squat 315 (305 lift + 10lb bw)

Bw plays a keyrole for squat and DL because if our body weight changes, the amount we squat and DL changes too.

One of the reason I brought this up is because I want to compete against everyone, not just my class weight.

Another example
If I weigh 165 and Squated 500
And a huge guy weighing 300 and squats 500.
Is he stronger or am I.

[dbunch]

@ OSU - Your comment made me curious so I did a little more research and it turns out that there have been several studies done on the subject over the last few years that indicate that otherwise healthy active individuals who carry a little extra weight tend to live longer than people of normal weight. Of course people who are extremely over or under weight tend to die earlier than both other groups. “People who are 10-to-15 pounds overweight appear to have no greater risk of dying than those of so-called ‘normal’ weight. Other studies have shown that those who are overweight are no more likely to die from cancer or cardiovascular disease. Also, being a little overweight may help stave off osteoporosis. And it can make you look younger, too.”

[crazy]

lets order a couple pizzas and beers....and discuss. ;D

[dbunch]

LoL - I'm in

[Rosario-546]

Jan 2, 2013 16:56:20 GMT -5 @supertu said:

Example -
If I weigh 170 today. Can only squat 300x1 today
Next week I weigh 180. Squated 305x1 that day
Thats a 15lb increase in squat

Is that a strength gain?
And if I lose that 10lb and go back to 170 bw. Would I be able to squat 315 (305 lift + 10lb bw)

Bw plays a keyrole for squat and DL because if our body weight changes, the amount we squat and DL changes too.

One of the reason I brought this up is because I want to compete against everyone, not just my class weight.

Another example
If I weigh 165 and Squated 500
And a huge guy weighing 300 and squats 500.
Is he stronger or am I.

Your first example is a oddity, do you want to win your wt class or win best lifter at the meet? The second ones easy, at 165 you crush the guy at 300 lbs with same squat. I'm confused with your question though, why are u not just using wilks to answer your question?

[Rosario-546]

IMO your premise might make since but it's not the case for me, I've recently dropped from 185 to 175 and had little to no effect on my squat or deadlift, but it destroyed my bench. My bw, after months, is back up too 185 and my bench is back too.

[Deleted]

Rosario - you actually lost 10lbs in your squat you said you lost 10lbs in body weight but squat didn't change. When you squat you squat most of your weight. (let's pretend since I don't know the actual numbers.)
185bw + 300 (squat weight) = 485 total weight. Versus
175bw + 300 (sw) = 475 total weight
This isn't exact but do you see the difference. I kept 300 squat weight because you said it didn't change.
I don't know why your bench went down. 10 lb drop on body weight can affect bench form but I don't the form you use.

My first example is just like the above from Rosario.
And yes I want to conquer the world from my normal. Body weight.

The second example if you add the numbers. The heavier guy squats the squats the same bar weight but he also squats the body weight difference between himself and the lighter guy. The weight difference could be muscle or fat >.<

Lighter guy
150bw +400 (bar weight) = 550 total weight squat

Heavier guy
300bw +400(bw) = 700 total weight squat

What I'm trying to get at us that if you lose bodyfat it shouldn't affect your strength if your training is right.
There was a thread where someone was lost in training so they thought thy had 2 option.
Option 1 - gain as much weight as possible to lift heavy
Option 2 - compete at a lower class

My advice for them is to don't give up and learn to train right.
Ideally you should lift at where your at a heathy weight (under 24% bodyfat)
The only reason you should move up in class is because you gain muscle mass.

I'm a powerlifter but my training started out as a bodybuilder routines. Once you learn and build all the muscles, you can know about what muscles are use on every lift. Like wide grip benching is bad for the shoulders because the way the shoulders blade press against the bench.

Another bonus about learning about bodybuilding is that you can feel and flex the muscles you build.
Not a lot people can feel what muscles are use for bench press because their muscles are so small.

[George]

Tu: I dont know about making a fact out of a heavier guy having a stronger squat and pull. It makes sense, but there are too many intangibles. Using myself as an example...my deadlift sucks on comparison. My squats are usually the heaviest in my classes, my benches are at or slightly below average and my deadlift is below average.

I am slowly gaining on my bench and deadlift, but my proportions are not ideal for pulling. At 242, I would enter meets or read results of similar weight classes, and usually the squats seemed to be around the lower to mid 500's, but the deadlifts were typically above 600. I am the exact opposite.

I would put more money on leverages, both proportion (lever arm...length of limb, etc.) and added mass (stability) before signaling out mass (fat or muscle). I've seen heavy set guys with weak posterior chains...likely a credit to the lifestyle that promotes higher body fat, that were are weak and unstable.

For example, Andy Bolton appears to be heavy set (yet solid) and has a posterior chain resembling something from greek mythology, with good leverages. Lamar Gant looked to have no extra padding, but had great leverages. Ed Coan, with his 900 at 220, was a perfect blend of leverages and mass.

There are many exceptions, people with good or great pulls who had bad leverages that built something through dedication. To me, the most constant deadlift indicator is leverages before mass.

[dbunch]

You premise looks good on paper but I don’t think it stand up in reality. If what you said was true I could in theory stop training gorge myself put on 10 or 15 pounds and in two week and hit new PRs. It isn’t going to happen. I hate to use anecdotal evidence but it is all I got at this time. I went from 370 to 306 and my squat and dead lift both suffered but my bench was decimated over all I lost about 15% off my squat and deadlift and almost 30% off my bench. I have since built my DL and squat back up to better than before the weight loss but I still haven’t recovered my bench to pre-weight loss levels. My squat and deadlift have improved enough now that I’m totaling more now than I did at the higher weight even with my diminished bench.

[osu122975]

Jan 2, 2013 17:02:38 GMT -5 dbunch said:

@ OSU - Your comment made me curious so I did a little more research and it turns out that there have been several studies done on the subject over the last few years that indicate that otherwise healthy active individuals who carry a little extra weight tend to live longer than people of normal weight. Of course people who are extremely over or under weight tend to die earlier than both other groups. “People who are 10-to-15 pounds overweight appear to have no greater risk of dying than those of so-called ‘normal’ weight. Other studies have shown that those who are overweight are no more likely to die from cancer or cardiovascular disease. Also, being a little overweight may help stave off osteoporosis. And it can make you look younger, too.”

Hahahaha....

The funny part is when looking at what's considered the "normal"....I would be seriously malnutritioned in order to get there. Now they do state there are some variables like bone density and such, but a healthy weight for me according to the robinson formula i should weigh about 150lbs at my height and age, which i'm no where near.

It's like when they said eggs are bad for you and then a few years later they're good for you. I still stick w/ the "everything in moderation". Balance is key.

[Deleted]

The "normal" from some studies are base off of average people.
The normal for powerlifter is different because of muscle mass. Which is why I suggest using bodyfat percentages.

Can't use the wilks formula for single lifts because it's way off.
The coffiecient they use in the formula was base off of past lifters and their total.

[toolpod]

And of course the "contrarian" Point Of View:

Who's stronger, the 150lb guy who lifts 300lbs...or the 300lb guy who lifts 400lbs?

Answer: The guy who lifts more weight :-)

[crazy]

AAAAAAmen

[mikefrost]

Some observations I've made in my own training...

I recently did a good cut and the results were squat and deadlift were around the same but bench went down. Bench is the most influenced by body weight. I agree Wilks has flaws.

I thought of a hypothetical theory.....

you have 2 lifters in the 90kg class. lifter 1 is 5'6 89.8kg lifter 2 is 6'0 90kg both total the exact same amount in a competition. According to Wilks lifter 1 wins. But lets be honest lifter 2 is far more impressive.

I once saw a quote it said a 300 pound man deadlifting 900 pounds will always be more impressive then a 150 pound man deadlifting 450 pounds, (both being triple bw)

[dbunch]

I’ve been back and forth on this issue for a while and I finally came to this conclusion, strong is strong. Whoever can move the most weight is the strongest, bottom line. When you start trying to think of all the physical advantages and disadvantages that you would have to account for to compare all lifters it gets scary. The one everyone talks about is weight. But you can have 2 people of the same weight who are vastly different in size. For example you have two people who are 200 lbs. the first thing you think is that you have 2 guys who are equal but one guy is 6-2 and the other is 5-2, big difference. I wouldn’t even want to try to figure that into formula.

[osu122975]

Jan 5, 2013 7:16:00 GMT -5 dbunch said:

I’ve been back and forth on this issue for a while and I finally came to this conclusion, strong is strong. Whoever can move the most weight is the strongest, bottom line. When you start trying to think of all the physical advantages and disadvantages that you would have to account for to compare all lifters it gets scary. The one everyone talks about is weight. But you can have 2 people of the same weight who are vastly different in size. For example you have two people who are 200 lbs. the first thing you think is that you have 2 guys who are equal but one guy is 6-2 and the other is 5-2, big difference. I wouldn’t even want to try to figure that into formula.

That's true.

Another truth is....strength IS relative. There is no accurate way to measure it other than to say someone is strong based on some different things they are able to do.

Strength is relative to what you do. I know some farmers who won't bench anywhere near what I do but would kick my butt in throwing hay bales, even tho I'm a deadlifter.

Here's a good article Tim Henriques wrote just recently.

www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/6_interesting_things_about_strength

While I do understand we are talking about powerlifting, but even within powerlifting, we are all stronger in one thing than another - it's all relative.

[dbunch]

I don’t disagree with you at all. Strength is relative to the task before you. And, as you said we are talking powerlifting. So that is what I used as my measure. In powerlifting strength is measured by how much a person can lift in a combination of 3 movements. Whoever lifts the most, wins. That is what I based my comments on.

The only award in a powerlifting meet that is relative is the best lifter award.

LMAO – No disrespect meant to anyone, I lift with a bunch of guy every week who smaller and stronger than me, meaning that they just flat-out out lift me. I also point out that most of them are about half my age too. But that’s a variable for another thread. ;D

[Deleted]

Let's close this thread. It isn't going in the direction I was aimming for.

I'm gonna start another topic that we can play with.

Originally this thread was suppose to lead to my next thread