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Post by dbunch on Jul 13, 2012 15:29:19 GMT -5
I was wondering if anyone else add any Olympic moves (Snatch or Cleans) in any form into their training. If you did, di it helps / hurts your powerlifting numbers, just curious.
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Post by mikefrost on Jul 15, 2012 9:03:54 GMT -5
Hi, I have experiance with olympic lifting, I was an o-lifter for 3+years and trained at a provincial club. IMO no I wouldnt recomend doing oly lifting because it has no carry-over to powerlifting. Being more specific I believe that the power clean may have a place for deadlift assistance due to the huge amount of power output, however even still in PL the deadlift only requires you to pull to lockout not to your clavicle area. I would rather see a lifter perform fast deadlifts with a submaximal load(speed should be the goal on every powerlift anyway) The problem with oly lifting and powerlifting is not only the lack of carry over but the majority of PL's who attempt the oly lifts have horrible technique and dont know what there doing. The oly lifts take years to master even a lifetime. They are mostly speed based where PL is strength based. Here is a study conducted comparing olympic lifting vs powerlifting for power outputs. It used Alexander Pisarenko(one of the greatest oly lifters ever a true bad*) vs. Kenady a powerlifter. www.k2fitness.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=35The study shows quite clearly that olympic lifting is a power based speed sport and PL is almost strictly a strength sport....here are some observations from this study... Kenady-140kgBW .40meters(height of pull deadlift) 2seconds(time it took to execute the deadlift) Pisarenko-120kg bodyweight .90meters(height of pull olympic clean) .90seconds to execute lift Kenady's 405kg deadlift produced 5.67watts/kg bodymass. Pisarenko-265kg clean produced 21.64watts/kg bodymass Therefore we can conclude that the olympic lifts are a completely different movement and sport all together and most likely have zero or very little carry over to PL. IMO the only powerlift which one could make a case for being benefited by an oly style pull would be the deadlift, I dont see how the bench or squat would benefit at all from oly movements. Lastly, I do believe that the oly style back squat and the oly style front squat can be great for RAW PL's. They really help the deadlift(conventional), and have some carry over to the Low Bar backsquat(assuming one LB squats in a comp)....I've watched my deadlift increase alot from ATG oly front squats. The great PL'er Matt Kroc claims he squats once a week, first week being LB powerlifting squat and week two is the olympic ATG high bar squat so every week he switches, I can totally see the logic he uses as there is great carry over for conventional pullers and squatters who dont use a really wide stance. Best of luck to you, happy lifting! |
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Post by dbunch on Jul 15, 2012 18:02:04 GMT -5
Thank for your reply, I believe that your comments match my observations. I don’t think there is very much carry over but I don’t see believe that there is any harm being done. Save for the fact that that I discover new places to feel pain.
I will give you that my technique is horrid and I doubt that I’ll ever be very good at Olympic Lifts. 48 is not the time to start. I also agree that I don’t think they will help at all in my powerlift career, with the exception of the various squats. But I also dabble in Strongman, All round weightlifting, and highland games. Mind you I’m not good at any of them but I do enjoy trying different disciplines. I do think that there are so benefit from doing the Clean and Snatch in the highland games, namely weight over the bar and the sheath toss.
I will also say that I’ve developed a deeper for Olympic lifters by trying there events.
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Post by mikefrost on Jul 19, 2012 13:01:14 GMT -5
Sorry for the late reply dbunch... I agree, there is no harm being done  lol@new pain, I hear you I found this most prominent on overhead squats and snatches, you get sore in muscles you never knew existed lol. If ones aim is Highland Games, Strongman, or throwing events(shotput, hammer ect.) then absolutely the olympic lifts are highly recomended! Just to clarify I believe using data and evidence that there is no place for oly lifting in powerlifting....only if the lifter seeks to be the best possible powerlifter that they can be. If the aim is to be more explosive or a more well rounded athlete then for sure oly lifts are the best! In your situation olympic lifting would have alot of carry over. As for your form, that can improve. If you'd like I can send you all kinds of great articles and youtube videos of beginner olympic lifting tutorials. At 48 your not old or to late for oly lifting thats nonsense I lifted alonside people who were middle aged. I'm sure over time you'll develope better technique and flexability and see big gains. I agree when I did the olympic lifts I gained a huge respect, my own opinion is that it is the greatest most challenging sport in the world. Imagine trying to snatch 210kg+ LOL!! I can actually fathom deadlifting 400kg+ but snatching 210 no way. For your Highland games stuff you may find the power snatch most beneficial, just remember your cues....hips rise at same time as bar, bar stays close to body, look for that whip or hip bounce where the bar touches your waist area, and its a speed explosive lift not an arm exercise. My old coach said "in weightlifting your arms are match sticks" Best of luck, keep working at it and the technique and weights will improve. |
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Post by dbunch on Jul 25, 2012 7:11:14 GMT -5
LoL – I’ve been meaning to sit down and write a long response but I just haven’t found the time so I’m settling for this shorter one. I would appreciate any input, videos, or articles you could point me to that would help
Thanks!
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Post by George on Jul 25, 2012 22:18:58 GMT -5
Excellent thread! Hang cleans used to be a regular occurrence during our high school training. To me it seems like a bit of a hybrid between powerlifting and oly, but I have heard its effectiveness debated both ways, and sometimes not discussed either way.
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Post by mikefrost on Aug 8, 2012 13:43:44 GMT -5
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Post by dbunch on Aug 8, 2012 18:11:26 GMT -5
I’m loving that hit and catch drills, Thanks for the links!
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Post by mikefrost on Aug 14, 2012 6:42:11 GMT -5
No problem, glad I could help.
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Post by skabow22 on Aug 25, 2012 21:43:52 GMT -5
In the past, usually out of lack of enough weight to do heavy deadlifts during the summer, I would focus on power snatches and various cleans (power, full, hang) along with rowing to be the majority of my pulling work. By the end of one bout I was doing multiple singles in the clean with 250 lbs and power snatched 175 a few times. My max clean ever was 265, relative to a 455 deadlift. I am by no means an expert or even strong enough to really weigh in, but I will say in my personal experience, after a period of olympic style pulls, I get awesome speed with my deadlifts, even up near limit attempts. HOWEVER, unless I worked the deadlift along with the cleans and snatches, my lockout went all to Hades. I could blow weight off the floor up past my knees easy as could be, but my lockout would be a total grind.
Here is a video of a max deadlift I did after one of my olympic bouts. I know the video is fuzzy, but if you pay close attention, I have pretty decent speed up past my knees but then slow down a ton and Duckies near hitch for the lockout.
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Post by lockout on Sept 12, 2012 15:29:53 GMT -5
My bet is that since olympic lifts are good and they make you strong, a good olympic lifter would also be pretty good at the power lifts, because they are stong from years of lifting. And this is also not to mention the fact that they typically do other movements as supplemental movements to their olympic lifts.
On the other hand, for any advanced powerlifter, adding in olympic lifts after the fact will probably only prove a waste of time.
So that's my point. Olympic lifts will have a general transfer to power lifts because they make you strong. But other than general strength, they aren't going to make you better at what you're already good at.
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Post by dbunch on Sept 13, 2012 7:38:09 GMT -5
I would agree with you on the Squat. I think Olympic lifter could walk into a powerlifting meet and dominate in that lift. But I’m not sure that would be the case in the bench or deadlift.
I was really hoping to become a better powerlifter through Olympic lifting. I just like to try new thing in Strength sports. LoL – This may be sacrilegious to some people but I get bored just concentrating on the 3 big lifts. That is why I also compete in the Highland Games, US All-round Weightlifting Association, and Strongman. I’m not particularly great and any one of them but I do all right overall.
What I did find was my horrible snatch technique did hurt my bench. I was using way to much back and shoulder to get the bar up. And that just killed my bench
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Post by lockout on Sept 13, 2012 13:45:38 GMT -5
This may be sacrilegious to some people but I get bored just concentrating on the 3 big lifts. I'm actually with you on that. These days I'm just trying to have fun with it. It doesn't matter what the sport is, I can't train for it if I don't like it. Although I took a break and got into bodybuilding for a while, now days I'm back into strength training. But I'm doing it my way and I'm doing it for me and nobody else. The main lifts I'm working on are squats, bench, and cleans. I replaced deadlifts with cleans. Cleans are a great exercise, and I'm already seeing the benefit. |
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Post by mikefrost on Sept 16, 2012 6:49:30 GMT -5
My bet is that since olympic lifts are good and they make you strong, a good olympic lifter would also be pretty good at the power lifts, because they are stong from years of lifting. And this is also not to mention the fact that they typically do other movements as supplemental movements to their olympic lifts. On the other hand, for any advanced powerlifter, adding in olympic lifts after the fact will probably only prove a waste of time. So that's my point. Olympic lifts will have a general transfer to power lifts because they make you strong. But other than general strength, they aren't going to make you better at what you're already good at. Great post! Your dead on imo. Olympic lifts can transfer over nicely to powerlifting. But the reverse isn't "as true". Years of benching for some people will hinder progress in the full snatch due to flexability issues. If a powerlifter squats and pulls with a very wide or medium stance it may not carry over very well to snatching and cleaning. I would reccomend for someone looking to do both sports is squat and dead with a closer stance for optimal transfer. For a lifter looking for variation from powerlifting but not looking to give up on the sport I would suggest.... olympic high bar squats olympic front squats power clean push press(BTN and Front) after those I'm not sure I see any real transfer value to the powerlifts. But thats just how my body responds, full cleans may transfer over well to PL'ing. Personally I perform the exercises I listed with my PL'ing routine minus power cleans. The HB and FS squats I strongly reccomend. If I were talking to geared lifters it may be different, but for RAW I find they work great and improve flexability and ROM. Overheads are also a must albeit strict press or push press or both(in my case). |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2012 14:15:08 GMT -5
Olympic lifts are mostly compound lifts. it targets more then one muscle.
it requires near perfect form or you might get hurt.
i dont have them in my training since i do a muscle per day and spread by push and pull.
power clean is like a whole body training.
your muscles require like 48 hours to recover, on average. i dont train muscles that are recovering. to avoid injuries
so if you train with olympic lifts, know what muscles are in use to avoid overtraining.
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Post by lockout on Dec 2, 2012 21:29:44 GMT -5
For the record, I have been doing cleans instead of dead lifts for a while now. So far it has helped a lot in restoring my strength levels in both the squat and dead lift.
I am convinced by now that cleans can easily replace dead lifts for most regular people who aren't competing. It works all the same muscles but it gives you a lot more power.
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Post by mikefrost on Dec 3, 2012 1:34:23 GMT -5
Cleans can never replace deadlifts. Take a good look at the deadlift starting position and a clean starting position, they are very different think hip position.
For most regular people, they should deadlift because there clean form sucks! Not the reverse, sure there are some folks who can perform a correct clean but honestly that is rare. Although a deadlift is still very technical to master it is much easier then the clean to master.
I can share some valuable info for the readers here and save you a lot of wasted years experimenting. If your goal is speed in the powerlifts....mainly deadlift, then you want to be doing close stance safety squats and close stance high bar squats. Personally I perform my conventional squat close stance in the low bar position. Stay tight in the deadlift before pulling and rip it off the ground I guarantee your speed will improve in the conventional deadlift. I've realized speed deads are not needed if you perform those squat types and assuming you pull every deadlift rep as fast as possible. This is just my experience as a close stance conventional deadlifter and semi close stance squatter.
There is a reason why all of he greatest powerlifters do not do olympic lifting. If the goal is fastest way from point A to point B oly-lifts will make that journey longer by as supertu mentioned hindering your recovery time.
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Post by osu122975 on Dec 3, 2012 11:51:48 GMT -5
Olympic movements are good for building strength. I believe they beat on me more than any powerlifting movement. They're harder to master, particularly if you're trying to do more weight.
I stick w/ powerlifting movements because they are easier to master. I have done power cleans, cleans and clean and jerk. I mostly have done them for fun or for a change of pace but are certainly not a mainstay in my training.
I think they have benefits, but in powerlifting, it's more for variety than benefit.
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lol@new pain, I hear you I found this most prominent on overhead squats and snatches, you get sore in muscles you never knew existed lol. 
