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Post by bigjohn308 on May 28, 2006 18:43:02 GMT -5
This has been a subject I have seen debated on several forums. What is the consensus here on testosterone replacement therapy?
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fatty
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Post by fatty on May 20, 2007 21:55:04 GMT -5
I see nothing wrong with it but feel the lifter should get a mandatory drug test at each event. If he tests w/in the normal range--he's good.
Fatty
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fatty
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Post by fatty on Jun 23, 2007 11:11:34 GMT -5
On thing to keep in mind on the HRT, alot of federations have taken a hardline approach to this subject. i believe it to be a big mistake and Karma can get a guy.
A lifter on Legitamate HRT will NOT pass a steroid screen but will test w/in the required guidlines. This is for 2 reasons
1-His epitest. ratio will be low, not high-causing a failure on the test.
2-He will test positive for an anabolic agent due to artificial test in his prescription, even with a Test ratio w/in the legal limits.
As we all get older, our bodies are going to change, nothing we can do about it. The legitimate HRT guys who need the supplementation to be healthy are gonna take it in the shorts. when no effort to "beat the system" has been implemented. This will result in failed test and subject to haters and cheater comments. But what happens when the haters need the supplements themselves and are shunned by all organizations and lifters in the only "those who are healthy can compete" organizations. he will be left standing alone, forced to lift against on non-tested competitions when his intention is just to compete
Karma
It is a tough subject but , in my opinion, one that needs addressed.
Fatty
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Post by 3speed on Jun 23, 2007 15:26:35 GMT -5
The WADA and IOC just adopted the stand that HRT will not be allowed even with a legitimate medical need.....hypogonadism, etc. This is already causing a ruckus. It will be interesting to see where it goes.
I agree that this needs to be addressed. I am not a hater but I, personally, do not believe that a 45 year old using exogenous test to attain the normal test levels of a 25 year old is a natural competitor. If he wants to modify his diet and exercise regimen to achieve higher levels naturally, then that is another story all together. I feel that HRT should be allowed only when it is for a bona fide medical condition.....not simply because a guy wants his test levels where they were 20 years ago.
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fatty
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Post by fatty on Jun 23, 2007 16:40:49 GMT -5
I would agree with you on that, but to set the standards on which a powerlifting organization determines a bona fide MC? Should be interesting to see if it is even accurately addressed. The true blue lifter will be the one who suffers on this because others will abuse the process to gain a shiney medal on their High School letterman's jacket..
$.02
fatty
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Post by lej405 on Jun 23, 2007 21:22:16 GMT -5
Hmmmmm Now maybe its not very important to some of you but when your test levels get so low you cant get an erection its time to do something about it. Yes I am in that catagory. It has positivly NOTHING to do with lifting big. It has to do with a quality of life that I am use to. I have blood test every 6 months just so my doctor knows I am not abusing the meds he gives me. Even on the replacement my test levels are on the low side. Around 350. Not quiet sure what the numbers mean but normal for a 50 year ols is from 250 to 800. Mine are at 350with meds. Yes I would love to still compete but since I am on what they say is a banned substance I choose not to. Even tho there are a lot of guys my age out t here that I am sure have a much natural test level than me. Makes me wonder do they need to take something to lower theres so I would still be on a level playing field with them LOL. Just had to throw my 2 cents worth in.
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fatty
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Post by fatty on Jun 23, 2007 23:29:06 GMT -5
Valid point Lej405
My $.06, please flush if you don't like it, what quality organizations should dwell is not being doctors. They need to require uniformed procedures thru the lifters medical staff to explain why it is necessary.
If it is Leg. MC. You as the lifter lose but so does the organization. I have alot more empathy for the lifter, most organizations are too closed minded.
350 is low even for 50's, 800 would be alittle high for 50's but 500 would be a good number. What most will see is an "old man wang" w/o taking into consideration or "medical necessaties" such as thyroid disorders, direct trauma to testicles, cancer treatments, andro-pause, seizure control, spinal injuries, down's, myotonic dystrophy, too much iron in the skin's tissue(hemochromatosis), pituitary disfunctions(s), low bone density---do I need to go on more?
There are some well intending quality lifters that are being put to the curb because of legitimate medical reasons. Sorry to vent, but it just hits close to home...
Paul(bossman) you and I have BS'ed over this point on the phone--you gotta an opinion for this organization?
fatty
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Post by lej405 on Jun 24, 2007 10:48:25 GMT -5
I too talked to paul via email. His stance is it is an illigal substance. Said I could still compete as a guest but if im gonna compete I want to go for the gold so to speak. I was just being honest with him and being on the up and up. The last thing I ever want would to be labeled as a cheater. So I choose not to compete anymore. However that doesnt mean I still dont train like an animal when I go to the gym. And by the way that is 5 days a week. After my training I change clothes and train others. Once in a while I get lucky and get that one that wants to get stronger. They are the really fun ones.
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Post by 3speed on Jun 24, 2007 17:57:29 GMT -5
There is a fairly good discussion of this on powerliftingwatch. One point that they make there is that giving an exemption for a MC would open the door for those who care to exploit the rule. They could use large doses of test up until close to a meet. They then go off just long enough for their levels to drop and, when the metabolites show up on a drug screen, whip out their prescription for test. The ones who get hurt are the ones who want to play by the rules.
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fatty
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Post by fatty on Jun 24, 2007 23:25:43 GMT -5
There is one problem, one of many.
You have got to put alittle trust in the lifting family, test em, have them show proper documentations of their private confidential medical conditions.
All HRT lifters shouldn't be painted with the same brush. It is irresponsible and inaccurate. More excuses from people who want to compete with as few of lifters as possible. Even when some HRT's are working their butts off twice as hard to just live with injuries or medical problems.
It is like saying all hunters are poachers.
It is just a ridiculous, uneducated excuses from people who love to live by em..
Marty
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Post by 3speed on Jun 25, 2007 19:45:38 GMT -5
I totally agree with you.
Again, it is the ones who want to play by the rules who wind up getting screwed.
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fatty
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Post by fatty on Jun 25, 2007 20:50:10 GMT -5
It has been a good healthy conversation.
We'll see if there is an organization out there that will take the ball and actually do something with it.
Thanks 3speed and lej, it was interesting to say the least to discuss this..
Marty
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Post by lej405 on Jun 26, 2007 11:52:27 GMT -5
Got one more thing to add about this. Anyone that can get the test replacement from a Dr and wants to abuse it has way to much money and needs to share some of that money with the rest of us. A 30 day supply is over 250 dollars. SO in order to really abuse it you would need at least 3 packs a day or more. Now I dont know about the rest of you but that kinda money is not in my budget just so I can get my test levels above 800 and maybe add another 20 pounds on the bench. Anyone that is going to try and cheat is going on injectables that are much better and CHEAPER. Yea Yea Yea I know there are people that will do anything to get around the rules but like I said earlier I chose to stop competeing rather than ever be considered a cheat. Just the way I am. I still support 100% Raw.
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Post by toolpod on Jun 26, 2007 13:51:49 GMT -5
Yeah, I was in the discussion over at PL watch the other day, I took exception to the high-handedness of Mr. Calvano in his statements about HRT recipients ( the fact that I didn't have any coffee that day might have had something to do with it ). Incensed was probably a better word...a good friend of mine, same age, 37, is on HRT permanently after losing both testicles to cancer, not a Pl'er, his biggest weights lifted are the 12 and 20 ounce curls and the 40 and 50 pound kid deadlift. I've tried to get him into Pl'ing for a couple years now, but he's just not down with it. After reading that tripe from Mr. Calvano...I'm kinda glad he didn't get into the sport after all.
As 3speed points out...the problem with the whole deal, is that folks playing by the rules get hosed because of the few cheaters out there. There would be no way to separate the two groups short of radical OMT testing, which just ain't gonna happen.
I think it's commendable that Paul B. would be willing to allow guys on HRT compete on a guest basis under the right circumstances.
I will say that 3speed makes another good point in that...for Master's class guys...does HRT really put you more appropriately back in the Open class? I realize that there are a lot of variables in serum test levels...goofy stuff like sexual frequency included, and that test levels themselves aren't the end-all be-all of performance on the platform.
Personally, I couldn't rule out going on HRT in another 10 years or so, if I thought it was needed...and weight-lifting would probably be the last factor in my decision. If I ever did that, I'd be done with tested meets unless I got a waiver or a guest lifter slot. That being said, the cost would be one of the biggest factors, legitimate HRT costs $100+ a month for testosterone, and probably 5-10 times that for HGH.
The Mustang GT with a twin-turbo aftermarket kit I'd like to have someday costs less... ;D ...and I could victimize many younger guys with higher test levels with it at the stoplight, than I could on the platform! ;D
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Post by chancey on Jun 26, 2007 19:28:32 GMT -5
This subject is way out of my leauge for comment but Toolpod that was simply BEAUTIFUL.
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