jp
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Post by jp on Nov 23, 2006 16:02:17 GMT -5
OK, so given the fact that there are Master's lifters here, how do you guys train to keep your lifts up to par?
I train my deadlift once in 8-10 days with 10 days being the optimum period of time between training sessions. I train the bench press every 5-6 days and the squat is rotated around the deadlift in between benching sessions so its basically an upper body/lower body rotation.
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Post by 3speed on Nov 23, 2006 19:54:12 GMT -5
I train bench and squat together 2 weekends in a row and I work bench with deads on the 3rd weekend. Sometimes I take the 4th weekend off and sometimes I restart the cycle.
I prehab my shoulders before every workout and I work rear delts after every workout. I also do some form of heavy ab work every workout.
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jp
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Post by jp on Nov 26, 2006 15:52:43 GMT -5
I know another Master's lifter I've competed with who does something similiar....he trains his BP/SQ on monday and thursday and on saturdays he does weighted chins and dips. The following monday, instead of squatting he replaces it with the deadlift.
Not sure what he did set and rep wise but we talked about his use of singles in the deadlift which is how I train the deadlift. I too, do lots of ab work mainly barbell side bends, roman chair sit-ups and leg raises.
I commend you for being able to train both the squat and bench in the same day....I'm wiped out after squats and can't do the bench justice.
Jp
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2006 14:41:51 GMT -5
JP do you get good gains training with that frequency? Im 48 and currently I train squat,dead and bench twice a week. For example on Monday I did squats 5x5,pauses 3x3,good mornings 3x5,rack pulls 3x5 Wed.bench I do flat bench for triples,some boards for triples,dumbbells for 3x6-8 some dips some kind of rows maybe some light shoulder presses Friday I lately I have been doing squat triples deads 5x5 off the floor or sometimes off of plates. Saturday I bench for sets of 5 reps paused and then do some boards usually low end one or two boards and maybe sometimes we will do some crazy rep war stuff depending how we all are after squats on friday.Then we do some inclines usually 3x5 or a 5,4,3 There are usually 5 or 6 of us training. There are 3 or 4 young guys beating up on myself and my other training partner who is 55. The rep schemes tend to vary a bit but this is basically the program that I have been following. The 5x5 stuff im the only one at this time using but the young guys tend to use bands alot where I find they are harder on my joints. If you wouldn't mind can you be a bit more specific as to what a typical workout is for you. Maybe yours might be more beneficial
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jp
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Post by jp on Jan 7, 2007 22:56:22 GMT -5
Hi Diablo,
Sure thing. I have found for a number of years that training my deadlift and squat on their own days has made a tremendous difference on how I gain on these lifts. Here's what I'm doing:
Squat day I follow a Gaugler routine I got off the Ricky Crain website. Essentially its a routine involving micro cycles where you build up quick over about a 3-4 week period and then back off a bit and build back up again. The idea being is to never drop your percentages below 80% because as an older lifter (I'm 45) I find it difficult to maintain a long "cycle" of dropping the weights back to like 60%, like the younger guys can do. I stay at heavier weights for shorter periods of time, instead of starting lighter and working up.
Basically the routine is like a set of 10, then 5, then 3, then 2-3 singles with sub maximal weights, then 2x3 (maybe 2 reps) with at least 80%. I then do two sets of 3 on pause squats for 3 seconds each set. Works great.
But after the squats, I do good old fashioned barbell toe raises for 3x15, then seated leg curls for 3x12-15, heavy DB shrugs for 3x15 and barbell side bends (great for grip and a challenge to balance the barbell) for 1 set of like 15 reps, plus either incline situps with a 25 pound plate on my chest or leg raises for like 25-50 reps.
The deadlift workout is a series of timed singles. I do a few warmup sets like 135x10, 205x5, 245x2-3, then hit my heavier sets. I generally will start kinda light on the DL, like at 70% for 15 sets of singles at 30-45 second intervals. Each deadlift day I raise the percentage by 5% and drop the singles by 2 or 3. At the end of the routine, I'm using 95% for about 4 singles. I also do 2 sets of 3 reps while standing on plates to build starting strength. I do the same assistance work on the deadlift day as well. I may start a little higher - like the 80% range - and move the percentages up a little slower - like 2-3% every training day, instead of 5%.....
Bench is a troublesome lift for me (always has been), but I've had some success with training my triceps hard and using rolled up towels for limited range benching. Regular rack benching tears up my shoulders. I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm built for deadlifting (I pull sumo) and with narrow shoulders and a long reach, benching is not my strong point. I was stalling just a few inches off the chest, but corrected that problem by moving my grip in a bit. Now the weight is launched off my chest but the lockout is a bitch. So I'm focusing on more lockout work to address that problem.
That said I've been using a bench routine involving a few warmups and just ONE heavy set of 3-5 for the day. I suppose my total benching routine consists of only about 5 sets or so and usually no more otherwise I don't get anywhere.
This is followed by some towel bench work for 3 sets of 3-5, close grip bench or triceps extensions on a decline bench with dumb bells for 3 sets of 8-10, seated rows for 3-5 sets of about 8 and EZ bar curls. I'm trying to get more rotator cuff work in, in the form of expander work.....like those old chest expander exercises....with enough resistance, they work the shoulders just fine and do not hurt the cuffs.
I'm trying to make sure I get all the muscle groups strong by including at least one exercise for everybody part.....since I'm a narrow grip bencher, and tend to get stuck near the lockout phase, my training has been geared toward that.
I also use a lighter bench day of about 4-5 sets of 5-8 with the same assistance work. I'm sort of relying on my assistance work to bring up my bench....mainly because I've found that more work on the bench does not make my bench go up....
I do not have "fixed days" for training each lift. Its too restrictive and leaves no room for lack of sleep, illness, family stuff, whatever....so instead I rotate the workouts like this for example:
Mon - bench heavy
Wed - squat
Fri - bench light
Sun or Mon - deadlift
Wed - bench heavy
Fri - squat
So once in 8 days I bench heavy, and once in 9 days or so I either squat or deadlift. I take extra days off if needed. I find the distance between days off for the squat and deadlift optimal. I'm a lighter lifter too so this probably helps with recovery. I competed as a 165'er and am now in the 181's.
Benching is another story. I've stagnated on the bench for a long time now and various routines haven't really got me out of the rut. I've played around with different routines over the past few years and haven't decided if I need to do a heavy/light theme or just hit the heavy bench once in 5-7 days and hope for the best. If I were to do the once in 5 days routine, it would no doubt involve training a few days a week back to back with something else.....I'd probably have a day just for shoulders/back in between everything else.
I do need to include shoulder work, but too much heavy shoulder work really seems to hurt my progress. I've comtemplated training the bench press three times a week with two of the days - say Monday and Friday being heavier days, while Wednesday would be a close grip day with only a few sets (maybe 3 sets at most - to control teh volume on any given day).
I've competed with other Master's lifters who're doing all sorts of different variations of routines and bench anywhere from once a week to three times a week.....
So that's pretty much it in a nut shell.....I do use wraps, a belt and a suit when the weights get heavier. I bench raw....don't like bench shirts plus I train alone with no one to help me into the shirt anyway.
One thing I noticed now that I'm older is that I simply cannot train like I did 20 or even 10 years ago. I just need to warmup more. I do agree with Crain's assessment that one need not drop the percentages back too far otherwise you spend too much time playing catch up. I'd much rather do shorter and heavier weighted cycles than longer, lighter based cycles......
Cheers,
JP
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2007 22:56:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the response JP. I am also a 165'er and if I dont get some weight off I could be looking at the top end of the 181 class. Ricky is right on with his ideas for the more mature lifters. Right now I am back to base building for a while to get my form back up to snuff then I get back to 80%+ cycles. My bench is not too bad even though my technique is not the prettiest,kind of like the energizer bunny.LOL I really dont use a shirt too often its a pain to put on. Squats aren't bad but deadlifts are my worst lifts. Most of my training is with a belt wrist wraps and knee sleeves. The wraps and sleeves are just to keep me in one piece. At 48 I have found that bands are not really my friends except for maybe for reverse band deads. I have been training and competing for over 5 years now and it seems that almost daily I learn something new. I guess thats what keeps me going in this sport. Knowledge and the people that I meet!
Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2007 23:04:47 GMT -5
P.S I have just changed name to Franko48 from Diablo2005. Not a thread hijack!!!!!
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jp
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Post by jp on Jan 10, 2007 20:13:45 GMT -5
P.S I have just changed name to Franko48 from Diablo2005. Not a thread hijack!!!!! aye-aye...copy that. JP
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Post by Jim B. on Feb 9, 2007 17:13:41 GMT -5
I am with JP on the training squats and deadlift on seperate days.
I am more of a bench specialist - but believe that deadlift and squat are a must. I only lift raw and have never used equipment other than a belt.
I only work out 3 to 4 days a week depending on how my body feels that week. But try to hit 7 days in 2 weeks. It helps me be more flexable in my workout also if I miss one.
JP and I both use a silimilar routine. I find if I train more than this I am tired constantly and do not see gains as readily. At 43 it is important to have recovery time and not risk injury.
It is hard to set specific days for any week. Too much going on.
A typical 2 week workout would go like this for me.
Monday - Arms - bicep, tricep, forearm, wrist
Tuesday - Squat - free weight or machine levage squat machine
Thursday - Bench - Flat Bench, Flys, Military Press
Friday - Deadlift, Back, Legs - quads, hams, calves
Monday - Arms - bicep, tricep, forearm, wrist
Wednesday - Squat - free weight or machine levage squat machine
Friday - Bench - Flat Bench, Flys, Military Press
Monday - Deadlift, Back, legs - quads, hams, calves
In two weeks I can get 7 or 8 days in. Hit pretty much everything twice.
I try to compete 4 times a year - so I have to also work around the (7 to 10 days off before a competition thing). I find it works great. You have to take time to recover before the meet. You can gauge your progress at the meets and then you are ready to go back to the gym for 2 1/2 months before the next competition.
This allows me to set goals all the time and not get burnt out as easily.
The biggest thing that I have found is constistancy in work ethic and rest and recovery. I look at this as a life sport and hope to enjoying the sport for many years to come.
Jim
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jp
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Post by jp on Feb 16, 2007 4:01:38 GMT -5
HI Jim,
Thanks for the reply. So on the 8 day cycle for each lift, in particular, the bench press, what does your routine look like? Are you hitting heavy singles, doubles, triples, fives?
As of late I'm trying to do no more than 5 or 6 sets of each of the powerlifts..... I think doing more than that is overkill....maybe one heavy set of 3-5 will work good.
jp
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Post by Jim B. on Feb 16, 2007 8:32:10 GMT -5
JP, I have always found the old pyramid routine works pretty well. I am an older lifter and grew up on this routine. I work up to 3 sets of 3 on Max then drop the weight back down for deload and finish with last set to failure. I am now working on a routine to build up my overall reps. on 315. I figure if I can hit around 9 to 10 rep on 315 I can get that 4th plate on for 405 someday. I use a rep chart to check overall strength - instead of maxing all the time. Saves on the shoulders. It also allows my body over time to get used to the weight. Here is the chart that I use for this. strengthnspeed.tripod.com/Powerlifting/BenchChart.htmI like the rep thing pretty well and have good success with it. Main goal on heavy days is to hit 3 sets of 3. I just worked through the 3 x 3 x 315 - (Hit a 5x4x4 on 315) now I will have to add some weight and try maybe 325 of 330 for 3 x 3. I just started to thread for my training log the other day. Hope it helps keep me on track this year. Check it out. It might answer a lot of your questions. rawpowerlifting.proboards62.com/index.cgi?board=logs&action=display&thread=1171385609Hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any questions of any kind in the future. Jim
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jp
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Post by jp on Feb 16, 2007 13:46:39 GMT -5
Jim,
I too, remember the old pyramid system (I'm 45)....it does work like a champ if its used correctly. In fact I use a similiar system for the squat and deadlift. 3 sets of 3 is a tried and true routine.
Thanks for the info.
Cheers,
JP
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Post by Jim B. on Feb 16, 2007 15:57:13 GMT -5
JP, No problem. Just keep an eye on my log. I have made some real good improvements with it lately. I went to the Mt. Vernon, IL meet on Jan, 20th. I could barely get 1 set of 3 at 315. And I hit 345 real strict at the meet. Within a month I have seen it go up tremendously. 5x4x4 at 315. I have slowly been creeping up the last 4 weeks using this method. I hope I can keep going before I plateau again. Based on my max. rep. chart I should be around 265-275 at this point. Only need 30 to 40 lbs. to hit my mark. One thing that I have learned is to only use 2 or 3 warm-up sets prior to going to max rep. weight. I believe that I don't wear out as fast when I do my rep. work. I have been working a number different exercises for arm (Triceps, forearms, biceps, wrists and shoulders). I figure a better strengthen the connective tissues around the shoulder to push the 9 or 10 rep. that I need to get to 405. And at 218 that would be really cool. That could be the real story to my success lately. Jim
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jp
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Post by jp on Feb 17, 2007 22:33:19 GMT -5
"One thing that I have learned is to only use 2 or 3 warm-up sets prior to going to max rep. weight. I believe that I don't wear out as fast when I do my rep work."
I try to do that myself, but out of curiosity, what do you do when the weights are really getting heavy? Is 2-3 sets enough? I think doing some pre-hab work first is - nothing too strenuous - is also good for the rotator cuff and gets some blood in the area prior to the heavy sets.
JP
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Post by Jim B. on Feb 17, 2007 23:48:43 GMT -5
JP,
I believe in always warming up pretty well prior to lifting anything. I will ride bike or elliptical prior about 5 to 10 minutes - just to start to sweating. Then I take about 10 minutes to stretch the arms and overall body. (I always wear sweats to help - unless it is really hot out).
I actually do 2 sets of flat bench with just the bar 1st. I do 20 to 30 reps. per set (nice and easy - just to get the blood flowing well).
I believe it really helps me warm up the shoulders. Then I do 1 set of 135x10, 1 set of 225x6or8 and then go directly to 315.
Then I do my 315x3x3.
Now, since I have moved up in weight (Last set 315x5x4x4. I believe I will add one set of 315x1 and then try 325x3x3. If I hit it next time I will move up again. Try 330 or 335.
Let me know what you think.
Jim
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jp
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Post by jp on Feb 22, 2007 20:36:30 GMT -5
JP, I believe in always warming up pretty well prior to lifting anything. I will ride bike or elliptical prior about 5 to 10 minutes - just to start to sweating. Then I take about 10 minutes to stretch the arms and overall body. (I always wear sweats to help - unless it is really hot out). I actually do 2 sets of flat bench with just the bar 1st. I do 20 to 30 reps. per set (nice and easy - just to get the blood flowing well). I believe it really helps me warm up the shoulders. Then I do 1 set of 135x10, 1 set of 225x6or8 and then go directly to 315. Then I do my 315x3x3. Now, since I have moved up in weight (Last set 315x5x4x4. I believe I will add one set of 315x1 and then try 325x3x3. If I hit it next time I will move up again. Try 330 or 335. Let me know what you think. Jim Hi Jim, I would actually go with 275-295 for a single or double as a final warm-up, then do the 325 for 3x3....315 is just a little too close to the 325....that way, you have a little room for error. Just a thought.... Cheers, JP
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Post by Jim B. on Feb 22, 2007 21:46:44 GMT -5
JP,
I agree with you on the extra set. The more I think about it - it is a pretty big jump. So I believe I am with you on the 275 - 295 for 1 or 2 reps. 1st.
Thanks,
Jim
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jp
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Post by jp on Feb 23, 2007 20:55:08 GMT -5
JP, I believe in always warming up pretty well prior to lifting anything. I will ride bike or elliptical prior about 5 to 10 minutes - just to start to sweating. Then I take about 10 minutes to stretch the arms and overall body. (I always wear sweats to help - unless it is really hot out). I actually do 2 sets of flat bench with just the bar 1st. I do 20 to 30 reps. per set (nice and easy - just to get the blood flowing well). I believe it really helps me warm up the shoulders. Then I do 1 set of 135x10, 1 set of 225x6or8 and then go directly to 315. Then I do my 315x3x3. Now, since I have moved up in weight (Last set 315x5x4x4. I believe I will add one set of 315x1 and then try 325x3x3. If I hit it next time I will move up again. Try 330 or 335. Let me know what you think. Jim See I would most likely go with a single at 275-295 and then do the 325 for 3x3.....315 is a little too close to 325....that way you're not burnt out on the warm up phase. John
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2007 8:03:26 GMT -5
Hi I'm Bob and new to this forum. I'm 47 and have gotten back into lifting after a 25 year break. I only do bench presses since I had a disk removed from my back several years ago. And I've gone from a 240 single max to 310 in about 6 months. But I've kinda stalled out right now. Been using a Bill Kazamier routine from when I was lifting back in the 80's of benching four days a week, heavy and light days. But enough about me.
My question is about supplements and recovery time. For older lifters, what are the basic required supplements? And is it a good rule of thumb to still allow at least 48 hours of recovery time between workouts?
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jp
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Post by jp on Mar 14, 2007 1:04:05 GMT -5
Hi I'm Bob and new to this forum. I'm 47 and have gotten back into lifting after a 25 year break. I only do bench presses since I had a disk removed from my back several years ago. And I've gone from a 240 single max to 310 in about 6 months. But I've kinda stalled out right now. Been using a Bill Kazamier routine from when I was lifting back in the 80's of benching four days a week, heavy and light days. But enough about me. My question is about supplements and recovery time. For older lifters, what are the basic required supplements? And is it a good rule of thumb to still allow at least 48 hours of recovery time between workouts? HI Bob, Welcome to the forum and back to weight training. Impressive results in a short period of time..... I use a simple chocolate or vanilla milkshake by MetRx in the morning and take a fish oil supplement. Other than that, an occasional protein bar and lots of yogurt for added protein. Training wise I use the 48 hour rule myself. I simply train a bench day, a squat day, a bench day, a deadlift day, bench day......etc...
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Post by Jim B. on Mar 14, 2007 8:49:34 GMT -5
Bob,
Welcome to the forum. If you have any questions or concerns - please ask. There are some extremely knowledgeable people here that are happy to help you any way that we can.
1 suggestion is to check out the log area and see what other lifters are doing in their training. It is a great tool to learn from and also keep you on track in your own workout schedule.
God Bless.
Jim
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Post by Pippin the Short on May 26, 2007 20:11:03 GMT -5
I'm 55 (165 lb.), and I find I can't recover enough to work out 3 times/week any more, even though (or perhaps because) I'm lifting more weight than I ever did before. My training on the 3 lifts is different for each one, as needed.
Squat: my best lift (far and away). Only trained heavy once every 2 weeks, sometimes with a light workout in between. No assistance exercises. Usually a pyramid: 135 x 8, 225 x 5, 315 x 5 (cut back to 3 or 4 if I'm going for a max single), 365 x 2, 405 x 2, single (based on where I am), (on the way down) 365 x 5, 315 x 5 (sometimes 6 - 10 if I'm really crazy.
Bench press: always my weakest lift. Trained every time I'm in the gym (2/week). Several different workouts: pyramid, pyramid with pauses (competition ready), sets of 8, sets of 5. Usual pyramid: 135 x 8, 155 x 5, 170 x 4, 185 x 3, 200 x 2, single, 165 x 8 on the way down. Today I thought I needed more reps, so I did 135 x 8, 155 x 8, 170 x 8, 165 x 8.
Deadlift: had to switch from sumo to conventional when I went raw. Nowhere near I used to be. Today's workout: 135 x 8, 225 x 5, 315 x 3, 345 x 2, 365 x 1, 365 x 3, 365 x 1, 335 x 5. Because I've had trouble with the deadlift stalling out at the knees, I've also done deadlifts from various rack positions off the floor. I recently did a single of 465 from knee level, something I'm happy about because my grip has always been weak. Now let's hope it translates into 400+ from the floor.
Other lifts ad libitum: dumbell curls, flies, presses. with bar: overhead presses, snatches, and cleans.
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jp
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Post by jp on May 29, 2007 23:37:25 GMT -5
I'm 55 (165 lb.), and I find I can't recover enough to work out 3 times/week any more, even though (or perhaps because) I'm lifting more weight than I ever did before. My training on the 3 lifts is different for each one, as needed. Squat: my best lift (far and away). Only trained heavy once every 2 weeks, sometimes with a light workout in between. No assistance exercises. Usually a pyramid: 135 x 8, 225 x 5, 315 x 5 (cut back to 3 or 4 if I'm going for a max single), 365 x 2, 405 x 2, single (based on where I am), (on the way down) 365 x 5, 315 x 5 (sometimes 6 - 10 if I'm really crazy. Bench press: always my weakest lift. Trained every time I'm in the gym (2/week). Several different workouts: pyramid, pyramid with pauses (competition ready), sets of 8, sets of 5. Usual pyramid: 135 x 8, 155 x 5, 170 x 4, 185 x 3, 200 x 2, single, 165 x 8 on the way down. Today I thought I needed more reps, so I did 135 x 8, 155 x 8, 170 x 8, 165 x 8. Deadlift: had to switch from sumo to conventional when I went raw. Nowhere near I used to be. Today's workout: 135 x 8, 225 x 5, 315 x 3, 345 x 2, 365 x 1, 365 x 3, 365 x 1, 335 x 5. Because I've had trouble with the deadlift stalling out at the knees, I've also done deadlifts from various rack positions off the floor. I recently did a single of 465 from knee level, something I'm happy about because my grip has always been weak. Now let's hope it translates into 400+ from the floor. Other lifts ad libitum: dumbell curls, flies, presses. with bar: overhead presses, snatches, and cleans. Sounds exactly like me....though I went up a weight class from the 165's to the 181's...I deadlifted every 8-10 days or so....did my deadlifts while standing on 45 pound plates....really helped the start of the deadlift. Bench....my bench is horrible...never been able to put up more than 264 at a meet with a shirt and the wind under me...LOL!!! Squats I can hold my own on and have done 405....though there's no way I could do that today....
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Post by pwrlftr on Jun 25, 2007 12:37:08 GMT -5
I'm new to your board but have been a drug free powerlifter for about 40 years now. Have a lot of titles but big deal. I would like to jump in with my routine here though because it might suprise you that a 57 year old does so much volume. Here goes:
Sunday: Work West side for all three lifts.
Box squats with bands and chains
bench press with bands and chains
Arched back Gms with chains
Dead lift lockouts from different pins
Tricep and bicep exercises and abs to end up.
Monday: Work a lot of shoulders with light weights, pullups, shrugs. Also do some pressing stuff and some olympic lifts. Kind of a fun day for me.
Weds. Deadlift day-Off season do sumo deadlifts for max triples while standing on 35 lb. plates. Meet season-Do max triples while standing on 100 lb plate.
Do either floor presses for 5 or 3 rep maxes kind of like metal militia. Heavy bench lockouts. Pick from either SLDL, zercher squats or heavy front squats with narrow stance.
Also train my heavy curls this day.
Friday. Always heavy squats and benches working to max 5s or 3s. Do a lot of lat assistance work on this day. If I am doing equipped meet I start training in loose gear about 8 weeks out.
I use a little of Westside, Sheiko, and Metal Militia plus some old fashion periodization. I know it's alot of volume but I thrive on it and I have tried it every way you can. We're all different and age is not always the defining factor in work load.
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jp
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Post by jp on Jul 6, 2007 14:12:10 GMT -5
Funny, there was a period of time where I was a believer in doing the lifts just once a week. I now think that doing the lifts once a week is akin to bodybuilders doing their split routines six days week.
The "each lift gets its own day theory".....I now believe that multiple days with each lift and controlled volume, for older lifters is the way to go.
Right now, I'm taking a break from competition and training heavy. I still squat and deadlift, but instead of training like I used to, I now deadlift at least once a week, instead of every 10 days or so. I also squat 2-3 times a week. I don't do flat benching right now, preferring to do a slight decline press right now instead.
On the powerlifts I've been experimenting with a routine involving rotating 10, 5, and 3 reps. The first day is sets of 10's, next training day 5's, next is 3's....and then back to 10's. The volume is easy to control because you always know where you are.....and if for any reason, you end up doing more reps than the 10's, 5's and 3's all the better. I just add weight to the bar next time.
In a way, even though I followed suit and did the lifts once a week, I never really felt like it was enough to perfect technique. I seemed to be no worse for the wear by doing the lifts multiple times per week.....as long as the volume is controlled. So I think I'd much rather do 3-5 sets (total) of one of the lifts multiple times a week rather than 10-12 sets once a week. I'm less sore that way.
JP
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