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Post by qcody65 on Apr 27, 2011 0:07:32 GMT -5
I fail at the top of my deadlift, then utilized chain deadlifts and rack pulls, top of deadlift no longer a problem... weak point training wins
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Post by unc197 on May 11, 2011 14:52:22 GMT -5
I have to say weak point training has its place for lockouts but getting overall stronger and faster will help everywhere as well. you have to mix it up in my opinion. Right now Im having problems with my lockout. I come off my chest good. I feel I have week triceps so Im working on weak point training. Same with deads having trouble locking out going to add some bands to my speed dead and do some rack pulls to help.
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Post by 5bjohnny on May 13, 2011 23:26:04 GMT -5
If you missed a lift due to execution, then that's a technique issue. But just because you think you have weak points, doesn't mean you do. Mike Tuscherer actually agrees with me on this subject as well. He diagnosed a fellows bench press, where he was having problems at lock out. Nevermind that the guy did a Shoot ton of lock out work and got stronger in virtually every movement. His lock out still sucked. Mike analyzed his force curve and determined that he was missing at "lock out" due to lack of speed from the bottom. In other words, he just wasn't strong enough. Once he was strong enough his speed from the bottom improved, and his lockout issue (with that particular weight) went away. Guess where this guy is going to have his next sticking point at? That's right. Lock out. Does he need to do lock out work? Nope. Just needs to get stronger. Generally once your technique is down, it's all about getting stronger. And that's generally the bottom line. Trying to fix every sticking point in the world isn't going to make you stronger. Getting stronger will. It seems simple but a lot of people are still having trouble grasping this concept. I blame WSB. Thanks gents. I actually agree with you. What you said makes tons of sense to me because I experienced the same thing. Doing a ton of lock out work for instance, on the bench press, only gave me sore shoulders. Training my triceps harder and working on my bench technique and grip helped me move more weight. Very simple really. And, you're right, I'd blame WSB too! ;D Cheers, John
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Post by zekester on May 16, 2011 11:42:00 GMT -5
I use to miss {sticking point} off the chest {3-4 inches} all the time. I learned from watching/listening to Dave Tate about the importance of the back/lats. I started focusing more on my back, I now never get stuck off the chest, its always at the top {been that way for a couple years now}...
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Post by realpc on May 19, 2011 14:25:41 GMT -5
Well technique is always an issue. Figuring out your sweet spots in a movement is always job #1 in terms of moving more weight.
Second, as I have talked about a lot, as has Jim, working areas you are failing in doesn't always work, and almost rarely does. I always bring up mine and Jim's conversations because he's one of the few guys that really talks about this besides myself. Mainly because so many people blindly follow geared principles and Westside protocols without thinking for themselves. Just like the whole "train your CNS" bullshit.
Jim worked up to over 900 pounds on rack deads and could barely lock out 700. I've done rack deads with over 800 at a time when my deadlift was under 600. If you got carryover from rack deads it probably means you just needed to get stronger. Matt Kroc said the same thing. That rack deads didn't do anything for his lock out. It was his kroc rows that did. You know what happened there? He just needed to get his upper back stronger. That's all.
I'm not advocating that you ONLY do the big 3. Just that you don't need to focus on where you are failing in the movement, because you're probably always going to fail there when you hit a weight that is just out of your reach. In other words, that "weak point" is built in. You can't get rid of it unless you change something in your technique. And when you do, a new "weak point" will reveal itself.
People waste too much time on these things and don't worry enough about just getting stronger on the basics. Guys from the 70's, who were just as strong raw as anyone walking around now, didn't focus on weak point training. They just did the big 3 and did bodybuilding after that for the most part. Leg extensions and leg curls were staples in most guys routines. So was pushdowns and curls and side laterals. They didn't worry about curing weak points they just focused on becoming as freaky strong as possible. That works. Pissing around worrying about overcoming every weak point in a lift is a colossal waste of time.
So when I talk about weak point training, I mean that from ROM standpoint. You may need to get stronger triceps or a stronger upperback or stronger quads. But you can do these things with just the basics. Squats, deads, bench, inclines, overheads, chins, rows, and dips. If you're doing 315x10 on overheads, you don't have weak delts. If you can dip with 200 pounds for reps, your triceps aren't a problem. If you can chin with 100 for reps and do t-bar rows with 300 pounds for 15, your "posterior chain" isn't weak.
So just get strong from top to bottom and let the lifts take care of themselves.
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Post by zekester on May 19, 2011 19:08:06 GMT -5
Definately agree with getting it done with the basics. The ones you listed pretty much cover my workout exercises. The only two things I do, that i quess you would consider weak point training are JM presses with chains { I do this because of past rotator problems that dips aggravate}, I didnt find much good out of bench pressing with chains, but it helped with the JM press. I think this is because the chains allow me to use more weight over a greater range of motion. And the other is bench pin presses. I did increase my max after weeks of doing these. {I dont get stuck at the top now with weight I use to}...
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Post by unc197 on May 20, 2011 13:30:19 GMT -5
I do not disagree with getting your full range of motion stronger. If you dont you will get week in other places. But lets say your upper back is weak and you do the "kroc rows" to get it stronger then you are technically working a week point. I personally do what ever I need to do to get stronger. If my tri's are a weak point hit them harder. If i fail getting it off my chest work on speed and chest work. I try to encompass it all because I want to be as strong as I can. If I think something is crap and dont try it then I might be missing something that could get me to the next level.
Since everybody reacts to things differently then you have to try different things. Right now I feel my triceps are week so when I work speed I add bands to help hit them a little more. Then after that I crush my triceps. I also feel my delts are week but Im having some aches and pains in them so I am waiting until after the American challenge to address them. Im doing rehab work to get them strong and healthy again. But in essence the way i look at lifting is if you have weak triceps or upper back and you get that stronger then you have done weak point training. Maybe not the typical way that westside does it but you have made a weakness a strength. If it makes you stronger I say do it. If it doesn't work note it in your log and try something else.
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Post by realpc on May 20, 2011 15:52:02 GMT -5
Getting musculature stronger and working weak points are two different things to me.
When you are concentrating on getting stronger, you're getting stronger top to bottom. That means if your lockout sucks in the dead, you concentrate on getting your upperback stronger. But you should already be doing this with rows and chins. So part of a well balanced program is that all of the musculature is hit evenly. And this is done with just a hand full of lifts.
But you can't "fix" weak points, i.e. the lift fails at a certain spot when I fail. Everyone can do a write in about how they used X movement to fix that, but all I would have to do is add more weight to the bar and you would fail back in the same spot again. The transfer in leverages is always going to dictate that unless you change your technique. And then another "weak point" will reveal itself. This is a fact.
This is why trying to figure out why you are failing at a certain point in the range of motion is silly. Just get stronger, and when you're strong enough you'll make that lift. People can't get their head around this because the concept is too simple, but its true.
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Post by unc197 on May 21, 2011 10:44:54 GMT -5
I agree you need to get stronger threw the whole range of motion. Im not saying thats bad because in the end that is what you must do to get stronger. But I feel certain exercises can help you get there. 3 board press isnt a full bench exercise but I find it helps me tremendously. I like rack lockouts but prefer deadlifting off a 2inch platform. I have done box squats 2 inches above parallel to get used to heavy weights similar to rack deads or 3 board press. But I focus more on below parallel speed and strength training. I find they all work so i will continue to utilize them. But again I dont think every exercise is for everyone. If works stick with it if it doesn't dont do it. But in the end you do need to hit full ROM to get stronger. I just think for some people doing rack deads or lockouts help them mentally because they get used to the heavy weight. but again just my opinion and how i have seen people react to certain exercises.
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Post by realpc on May 21, 2011 12:34:29 GMT -5
I think the mental aspect is solid in that regard. A lot of guys choke or get psyched out when more plates are thrown on the bar. so getting used to looking at a certain amount of weight, even in a ROM that has no carryover can be a good thing. However from an actual carryover to the full ROM lift? I have seen very little in the way of results from using partial movements. If you're getting a tremendous amount of carryover from partial movements you are probably either built for the main lift, or just not very strong at the moment in comparison to where your strength ceiling is at.
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Post by unc197 on May 22, 2011 6:52:35 GMT -5
Yeah I can agree to full ROM has best carry over. I noticed this big on 2in platform deads. But I look at lifting in all aspects. So that is why I consider the all exercises. My lifting partner is a mental midget and gets himself psyched out big time once it starts to get heavy. SO we work on heavy weights at times to get him used to it. his bench and squat has jumped pretty good.
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mspuzz
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by mspuzz on May 22, 2011 11:26:06 GMT -5
I must say that seeing realpc's derogitory posts to you're query, I am suprised and impressed that you did not respond in kind. That shows that even at 19 thatnuckolskid , you have more maturity and respect than he does. You have the right idea, try various methods and do what works for you.
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Post by realpc on May 22, 2011 13:44:32 GMT -5
Nothing I wrote was meant to be derogatory. That's my argumentative style.
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Post by zekester on May 22, 2011 19:37:43 GMT -5
I think everyone here is "simple" enough to understand that you have to get stronger {or change/improve technique}, to make a lift you havnt done before. Its just that thier own personal experience shoots holes in your conclusion on weak point training. Its not your augumentative style that refuses to acknowledge that someone may have diferent results/conclusions, its your closed mind...{not meant to be derogatory, just an observation}
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Post by thatnuckolskid on May 22, 2011 23:50:54 GMT -5
guys, at this point i think this needs to be one of those agree to disagree discussions. i'm not sure that this is going in a productive direction anymore.
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Post by realpc on May 23, 2011 13:16:19 GMT -5
I think everyone here is "simple" enough to understand that you have to get stronger {or change/improve technique}, to make a lift you havnt done before. Its just that thier own personal experience shoots holes in your conclusion on weak point training. Its not your augumentative style that refuses to acknowledge that someone may have diferent results/conclusions, its your closed mind...{not meant to be derogatory, just an observation} Actually it took an open mind for me to understand I didn't have to buy into the "weak point brigade" mode of thinking, because I used to be a "weak point brigade" guy. That if I wanted to progress and get stronger, it wasn't any where near as complicated as I thought it was. AS far as shooting holes in my "theory". Well, its not my theory. It's actually a time tested and proven method for getting stronger and breaking world records. But to each his own.
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Post by unc197 on May 25, 2011 7:15:43 GMT -5
guys, at this point i think this needs to be one of those agree to disagree discussions. i'm not sure that this is going in a productive direction anymore. I dont think it was a bad discussion at all. I agree with Realpc on somethings and disagree on others. thats life.
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Post by zekester on May 25, 2011 7:56:13 GMT -5
I quess failure to acknowledge is more to the point, than a closed mind...As I stated earlier I personally in my training use the basics to get stronger, thus improving my max. However, I have used some weak-point training and had sucess as has many others. There are also World record holders who use weak-point training. Also, my message was that thier experience and results shot holes in your theory that "weak-point" training doesnt work, not that your training doesnt.
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Post by levampailleur on Feb 22, 2012 8:08:08 GMT -5
I've been lifting for 8 years now and I never once considered even looking for my weak points to train them, reading about this stuff online just scratched me the wrong way. Maybe it's valid but I would never do that stuff. Why spend effort doing something that might work when you can do something that definitely does?
Here's what I do personally: I focus energies 2/3 on the big 3, 1/3 similar&lighter variations close grip or pause bench front or pause squat snatch grip or stiff leg or deficit deadlifts
My training changed over time like everyone but I always stuck to these exercises almost exclusively, and I only do them because they are lighter variation of the lift, meaning I do them for health value (reduce repetition injuries, boredom, etc).
Other than that I do empty barbell curls, 20-pound dumbell presses overhead, face pulls with a cable machine, etc. at the end of a workout if I have energy/time to do them. Notice how these are also all health value type of exercises that happen to be super light and easy.
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Post by zekester on Feb 22, 2012 11:27:59 GMT -5
The 20 lb d presses, face pulls, etc.. is weak point training, without doing them you would have weak points, particurly in the shoulder capsules, that would result in injuries...
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Post by dbunch on Feb 23, 2012 8:32:14 GMT -5
LoL, he I go again getting into this discussion. Unless a person trains ONLY Squat, Bench, and deadlift they can’t say they don’t do week point training. If you doing any other movements Then you’re weak point train. Call it what you want the only thing that counts is what you actually lift on the platform.
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Post by osu122975 on May 5, 2012 13:45:11 GMT -5
Weak point training is based on a max lift anyway and you have to have very good form and very good people around you to see and diagnose those weaknesses. Weak point training is also muscle specific. It is NOT a general exercise thrown into a workout.
It seems many lifters today don't get in enough sets and reps on the main lift and get too concerned w/ what accessory stuff is gonna be best.
Considering geared lifters are only doing partial ROM anyway, sure they need all the extra accessory stuff. Raw guys like us just need to do the lifts and very very very little extra work. Remember, w/ raw, you are already doing a full range of motion.
So why do 5x10 triceps, biceps and shoulders when you could do 10-15 sets on the bench and hit it all at once and maybe some light bicep work afterwards? The weight on the bar will ALWAYS be heavier on you than any accessory movement will be. So maybe do 10 sets on the bench and 5 sets w/ a 2-board close grip if you wanna hit your triceps a little harder. Accessory work will always be inferior in weight and strength building compared to doing extra sets/reps on the main movement.
For me, accessory stuff is for a pump to help me recover. Light weight and high reps. Hit the compound stuff hard - bench, squat, DL, T-bar, Chins, etc. Train smart and you'll last a lot longer.
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Post by chancey on May 22, 2012 8:08:44 GMT -5
Amen osu. I couldn't agree more. My current bench day is 5 sets reg bench, 3 sets CG, and 2 sets of illegal wides and finish with some high-rep Tri Pushdowns for recovery.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2012 11:45:17 GMT -5
lol thats alot of reading. how about you just change the words. "weak point training" to "support muscle training"
support muscles allows you to perform exercises correctly and move into higher weights.
bypassing the "support muscle training" is what i like to call high risk. your more prone for injuries.
Did you know that if you struggle getting the last 2 to 3 inches up on bench press, it means your shoulders are not strong enough for that weight.
up your current strength training on shoulders. problem solve.
above example of "support muscle training"
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Post by zekester on Oct 20, 2012 20:52:59 GMT -5
I tend to go with the people who have a proven track record...Louie Simmons and Dave Tate are big on weak-point training...Also, Ted Arcidi was big on accessory work...I quess these guys dont know what they're talking about...
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