How Many of You Have Withstood the Test of Time?

[Deleted]

Sam Alduenda is a strong 65 plus lifter in the 165 class. I have seen him work out RAW with Robert and go to 470lbs, but at that point he puts his single ply suit on. He does not however compete (as far as I know) in RAW contest. He is currently recovering form a shoulder injury he got while training for the IPF Worlds Masters.
450 is very respectable lift.
You see that pull or much lighter with suits on. Congrads!

[GustonPower]

I have this posted on Bossi Routine thread, but I'll share here too.

Back in January 2006 I finally decided to get off my butt and go back to weight lifting. The first bench was 180lbs max. Pretty pathetic.
I then found a pyramid table and used that every third week. In the 2nd week of December of 2006 I hit the 300lb bench mark. A highlight in my life at age 39. I continued on and in Januray 2007 I hit the 305lb bench. I fell off of weight lifting after that only lifting here and there but never too extreme.
In May of 2007 I decided to get back into it and then I found out that I destroyed my shoulders. I could barely push 135 for a warm up without extreme pain.
All of this time I only took protein powder and weight gainer.
Great gains can be made in short time but at what price?
I'm back at it now and pushing 235 for 3 reps at 225 pound body weight hoping to get back up there to being respectable.
Just my story thought I would share.

[RichHutchison]

I met Sam Alduenda, I believe it was the 2001 AAU Raw Nationals in San Bernardino.
He was there only as a spectator, but he was a spectacle. No man in his 50s should
be allowed to be as massive and vascular as he was. Very nice and helpful guy too.
I was remiss in not mentioning him above along with my accolades about Cortes
and Flores. He’s one of the few truly great ones.

Watch out for Nick Theodorou too. One of the founders of the ADAU.
At 165#, he deadlifted 570.92 in the 55–59 age group in October 2006.
And he seems to be getting better. :-P

Sam set AAU American Men’s RAW Masters 165# 55-59 y/o records in August 2000
with SQ=314.15, BP=314.15, and Total=1,219.0. He doesn’t currently have the DL
record, but unless the BP and/or the SQ records were set on 4th attempts,
then it follows that his DL that day was 463.93.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think he’s quite 65 y/o yet. I’ve been watching
over my shoulder for him for years, and with very careful planning, I have
brilliantly managed to maintain my lead on him, if only in the age category.

[uncleal]

Sunday - Thank you.

Guston - Thanks for sharing. Best of luck with your benching and keeping that shoulder injury free. I'm going to try Bossi's bench press routine myself. I've never done a reverse pyramid before. Should prove interesting.

Rich - Wow, there sure are some strong old guys out there, huh? I always check out what the grandmasters (55+) have done each month in the PL USA reports. Yea, Nick T is an awesome lifter. Don't know Sam's name, but that is one incredible bench press for an older lifter without a shirt. I wonder what he can do now, at an age when a 1.5 times bodyweight raw bench press is hard to come by. Do you know where you sit with your 375 lb squat? That's gotta be up there in our across the board "rankings", too.

[Deleted]

Rich,
Busy moving and time is tight. (The wife thinks I ran back into the house to check when the rental truck is due back!) If you go to the results section of the 08 IPF World Masters held in Palm Springs (Sept/Oct., 08), you'll see how Sam did. His bench was just the bar and collars due to injury to his shoulder. I'll have to ask him about that RAW record. (Didn't know!) He received 1st place for his age and weight. (Sam's Date of Birth is 1942.)
Thanks,
Sunday

[uncleal]

Hey, Rich, yesterday I went through the records of all the feds I know of with raw divisions*, and here are the best full meet lifts for the age 60+, 165 lbers:

Best Squat: 375 (You. Closest to you is 352.)
Best Bench Press: 242 (ADFPF. My best is 2 lbs short, although I did 245 in a nonsanctioned meet last Feb.)
Best Deadlift: 463 (We and a guy from the APA are second with 450)
Total: 1025 (You da man again, Rich! Closest to you is the APA guy with 1010)

Again, these are full meet records. I didn't check the single lift categories.

*AAU, APA, APF, ADFPF/WDFPF, ADAU, IPA, NASA, NOVA, RAW United, 100% RAW, SPF, USAPL, WNPF, WDFPF

[RichHutchison]

Sunday, tell Sam that I had rotator surgery when I was 65 y/o.
Tendon reattached to the arm bone using a screw and sutures.
Worst part was that the immobility for 6 weeks caused atrophy
in the shoulder, pec, and arm that I never expect to recover from.
Maybe that’s too depressing to pass along; you be the judge.
But I've benched 215 afterwards, which is down only 20 pounds.

He won't know me, but just tell him that I’m someone he tried to help
with some squat advice at the 2001 AAU Raw Natls in San Bernardino.
He wanted me to widen my stance and wear shoes with some heels.
But I’m incorrigible and I won’t abandon my Converse All-Stars.

[RichHutchison]

Al, that's a lot of research to find out that neither Cortes, Flores, nor Alduenda bothers to compete raw. I keep saying that we're doing well because the really strong guys don't show up.

Oh, and did I mention that I don't wear a belt?
That makes me an Ironman per Spiro's RAW United.

[Deleted]

Cortes just competed 100% RAW remotely a few weeks ago. Most these guys started raw because there were no suits back then. I may see Sam with Robert after the holidays, and I'll forward the story. Sam is one of those guys who is always willing to help. If the shoulder keeps him out, he may start training some of the young lifters coming up. The reason Robert Cortes started wearing a suit was the fact that if he didn't back then, he couldn't keep up. (Somewhat forced into it.) RAW has now appeared again, and he wishes it had happened sooner.
Sunday

[RichHutchison]

Nah, I still say Cortes could compete and win naked.

[uncleal]

Rich - I got the fed links from a list on powerliftingwatch.com. So, the research only took me about an hour.

Yes, you mentioned you lift beltless in the thread about whether or not this fed should allow wraps. You have a very strong core, young man!

Spero coaches a high school team that competes at all of our meets. All of them lift without a belt, too. Maybe it will become a trend.

I know what you mean about most of the strongest guys not wanting to lift raw. Guess they want the big numbers. That's probably disheartening to the younger guys, too. Perhaps, things will start to change after next month's RAW Unity meet. Somehow, Eric has coaxed a number of elite geared lifters to enter; for example, Brian Schwab, who lifts in the unlimited gear category and has the second best 165 lb total in the world today, is among the entrants.

So, take heart. Maybe in a year or so, you and I will take our "proper" position, as also rans against the likes of the three elite masters lifters you mentioned. However, keep this in mind before you sell yourself short: Assume their increases over raw in single ply gear are typical, about 25% increase in the squat & bench and 10% in the deadlift. That computes to a 20% improvement in their totals, right? Do the math, and your best total is upped to at least 1230 !!! Still feel inferior? Check out check out USAPL's M-5 and M-6 Master's Records at www.usapowerlifting.com/records/american/men-master.htm, and you'd be right up there with the big boys.

[Deleted]

When Robert Cortes did the remote lift for Paul's 100% RAW Single Lift Worlds he pulled a RAW 402.5lb. deadlift, and felt he had a 411lb. in him RAW if he wasn't sore. The meet a week and 1/2 before he pulled 448.3 in Las Vegas with an old single ply Marathon suit on. ( Approx. 40lb difference.) It would have been interesting to see what the difference would have been having the meet with the RAW lift first, and then having that followed by the Equipped meet afterwards. (Which I feel would have been easier.)

Anyway, Robert agrees the suit offers the biggest gains in the squat. Anyone looking at Equipped records for squats verses their RAW squats should not get to discouraged. Also, wraps verse non-wrap lifts make a big difference in the squat. (Lifters with knee issue often avoid strict RAW meets for that reason, which makes for good common sense if they are having knee issues.)
I tried a test with a suit, and can pull a 455 dead for 2 to 3 reps at 181lb, and the reps go up to 4 to 5 reps at 455 with a loaned single ply suit on.(Having a good day numbers.) Sam and Robert train RAW all the time, and only put the suit on if it is an equipped contest, 3 to 4 weeks before the meet. ( They only use them to see how close they are getting to their max attempt.) The suit does support you, but is not as comfortable as raw. I've seen guys take a 15 minute ritual to get into a suit. Remember, most pre-70's records were raw, however someone might have squated with a cut off pair of tight Levi 501 style bib overalls on, so take that into consideration.
The nice thing about Paul's 100% RAW is it is well defined. (Although some other RAW / Equipped federations I believe allow knee and wrist wraps which is back to making RAW records themselves hard to compare.)
Currently the records for some of the younger RAW lifters are up there with the equipped.
One reason for competing in Paul's federation was due to the fact that one of the largest promoters on the West Coast had a contract with one of the suit makers, who was going to sue him if he put on RAW meets. I think this is one of RAW's biggest challenge. The promoter called me after seeing Robert's lift on the Internet and loved it. When we got into talking about RAW meets, he felt the suit makers are looking at RAW all wrong. RAW he says allows someone to test the sport without a large outlay of money, and if they want to dive into the equipped side, then there is a ready made market for them. (Currently suit makers are taking a hard line stand on raw, and it may backfire.)
As far as beltless goes, if you had a chance to watch the recent Olympics, most of the SHW lifters didn't wear lifting belts. Zabo at World Gym always said that the belt was only needed for presses over the head. Some of the SHW Olympic lifters even proved that to not be the case.
Suits, (belts?), etc. will take time for people to get use to not wearing. RAW should not expect to make great gains in a short time. (The suit makers also need to remember that they never received the grief that raw is getting when the suit makers turned the sport from raw to equipped.)

Remember, not all records are equal, so avoid the mistake of comparing uneven records. Also, putting on a suit and getting a huge lift is still impressive. When RAW verse Equipped records are close, hats off to the RAW lifter. When the numbers differ by 100 plus pounds, the person wearing the suit is still a great lifter, and should be able to compete RAW and be very impressive.
Compete in whatever makes you feel good at the end of the day. (Although I'm not sure about the naked idea!)

p.s. - There really once was an Eastern Block (nudest) lifting federation. Gives true meaning to the term RAW!

[uncleal]

Good post, Sunday, and thank you for taking the time to lay your feelings out. I agree with all but one of your comments, the one about the records of some of the young raw lifters being equivalent to the geared lifters. Just go to the top lifter section of powerliftingwatch.com, and you'll see what I mean.

I've never competed in gear but do have a bench shirt and deadlift suit. I bought a Titan Fury shirt that's two sizes too large to use when my shoulders get gimpy. The first time I put it on, I got fifteen pounds more than my previous PR double. I've only worn it once since, but think I could do well with a properly fitted one. I know my Titan DL suit fits right, because it ripped every freaking hair off my thighs when I put it on. When I was finally able to bend down, I got twenty pounds more on a triple than I had before, and that was with the straps down! So, I guess I could do well with this equipment too, although I hated the discomfort, especially having Otto & my boys shoved up behind my bellybutton so much, I haven't worn it since.

The APA is the fed that allows knee wraps in their raw division. By the way, I find the divergence in numbers based on the determination of squat depth is almost as big a factor as the suits. The judges at the raw fed meets I've attended require depth to be "convincingly" below parallel (actually stated that way at the rules meeting), as opposed to the just-get-to-parallel, close-call-goes-to-the-lifter interpretation/judging in the geared feds. Go to any powerlifting message board, and you'll see this is one of the most hotly debated issues in the sport.

All that said, I'm glad you recognize that a strong lift is a strong lift is a strong lift, whether done raw or equipt. Takes power, guts, and intense training effort no matter which way you go.

[RichHutchison]

Here's another Masters stud that probably not very many know about.

Tom Newnam, from N. Carolina, at the age of 50,
completed the Massanutten Mountain Trails 100 Mile Run
in Lee Ranger District, Geo. Washington Nat'l Forest, VA
on May 13-14, 1995 with a time of 33:05:20.
Not many 50 year olds can stay awake for 30 hours,
let alone run through a forest throughout the night.

This is an absolutely brutal event - only masochists need apply. ;D

But Tom now also holds an AAU Single-Lift Bench record.
From the 2006 AAU National Push Pulls:
165 Raw, Master 60-64, 317.5 Pounds!!

That's quite a combination of achievements.
One can only wonder what he might do w/ 3 lifts.
He almost certainly has good legs.

[uncleal]

Thirty hours??? Yikes! It took me eleven to climb up and down Mt. Hood (Oregon) last year, and I thought I was going to die.

Tom's bench press is awesome, too. He's the first person I've seen in our age division come close to double bodyweight without a shirt. I didn't think it was possible. He's one strong dude.

[RichHutchison]

I have a very fit friend about 30 y/o who trains very hard
to complete that race in about 30 hours; 30:11:52 this year.
Newnam's 33 hours was pretty good for a 50 y/o,
although older folks do often fare pretty well in it.

An interesting data fact. The average of the 160 entrants
to the 2008 event was 42.89 years. The average age of
the finishers was 42.17 years.

Note that the event drew 160 people of all ages from all over the country.

Last time I checked, the race was actually 101.8 miles,
and the terrain is awful; you have to run through creeks
and climb over boulders, along with bumpy trails with rocks.
Check out some of the trail segmants in this page:
pa.photoshelter.com/gallery-show?G_ID=G0000bI2Fl2mAwtE

I've heard stories of everything from badly swollen ankles
(the ones that aren't broken), black urine from severe
dehydration (in spite of aid stations), to hallucinations.

I haven't touched 300 pounds in a bench in over 25 years.

[RichHutchison]

One quick point and then I'll quit. Go to the web page in my previous post.
Check out 57 y/o Dan Brendan in the last 3 photos on that page.
Tell me he couldn't do some serious squatting with a little training.

I lied. One more thing.
In the beginning of that same last row, see
the "trail wounds" of 60 y/o Doug Blackford.
And I don't even think he met up with a bear.

[uncleal]

Maybe he did...and the bear fondled his breasts with untrimmed nails.

Amazing masters athletes. Thanks for sharing, Rich.

[RichHutchison]

Hey Al, I'm sending this guy a box of Twinkies so he doesn't lose weight.

At the 2009 ADAU Raw Power Steel City Challenge:

DEADLIFT (Single Lift Only)

198# - 64y/o - Male Master - Gerald Woods - 523 545 562

[uncleal]

Unfortunately, it's too late to send those twinkies to 66 year old Art Menton, who lifted in the 165 lb class at the RAW Unity meet yesterday:

Squat: 379.5 (first attempt; missed 423.5 afterwards)
Bench: 262.5 (second attempt; narrow miss with 275 on third)
Deadlift: 501.5 !

We're doomed!!!!!

I spoke with Art for awhile during a break. He's a really nice, humble guy. Usually lifts single ply with the USAPL.

Best meet I've ever witnessed, by the way. Check out some of the huge numbers on powerliftingwatch.com or rawunitymeet.com.

[ronharris]

Sept 2, 2008 23:16:39 GMT -5 jp said:

Sept 2, 2008 14:59:27 GMT -5 uncleal said:

A lot of the older guys I've lifted with, like me, are relatively new to the game...I'm thinking because almost everyone who starts young and stays with it fries his shoulders, knees, and/or back after a few decades in this sport. Am I wrong? That is, has anyone here been competing for more than let's say thirty years?

You're not entirely wrong in your thinking. I gave up competition a few years ago, and now today at 46, my joints don't hurt like they used to. My knees, hips and shoulders were killing me for years. My shoulders hurt more from squatting and wedging myself under the bar than bench pressing, though benching hurt my shoulders too.

Today, I just train for health, don't lift the uber heavy big weights, and have a way easier time getting out of bed in the morning....LOL!!

I used to do Olympic lifting and powerlifting and competed for about 20 years. It was fun and I wouldn't trade the experience at all, but powerlifting, despite what some people think and say, does take a toll on your body.

Just train wisely and work within your limits and you'll be fine.....for awhile anyway...>LOL!!

John

[ronharris]

I've been lifting 40 years and just started competing at age 52. I'm lifting more now than I did at 20. Go figure...........

[Deleted]

Hi Cleal'
What I found with many lifters I knew through the years,most of their injuries they received from lifting was due to steroids , for a persons body is only made for a certain weight to handle, steroids give to much power to fast for the joints or should I say the body and there will be after effects down the road
I myself have near taken them and happy I never did building my natural power up through the years and will be 50 years of age in a few months with a 400 raw bench at 207 pounds.
[ Thank God for that]

Now I see 90 percent of those who lift serious now at a young age in the gym do them , how sad for true real raw strength.

Compo

[uncleal]

ron - That's good news. I hope you defy the odds and keep improving.

Compo - 90% That is an incredibly large number. How sad!